Recently, there has been controversy on the Internet regarding Our Lady of Fatima. There have been people claiming the apparition never happened, or it was of diabolic origin. I have often said (and I continue to maintain) that Traditionalists should not get bogged down with studying private revelations, but should concentrate on solid theology and reading the works of the approved theologians.
When people start to cast doubt (or worse, aspersions) upon approved private revelations, it only serves to sow doubt in the Church during the Great Apostasy, with no pope to answer inquiries and settle disputes. I agree that there should be no quibbling about what was "really" said by an approved apparition. I also agree that private revelations need not be believed as long as there is no disdain of ecclesiastical authority (more will be said on this point below).
However, there are those who attack Fatima as "of the devil" which is blasphemous and impossible, since the Holy Ghost would protect the Holy Father from approving as "worthy of belief" anything that comes from Hell. Fatima was approved by Pope Pius XII himself. To claim that Fatima is from Hell would be an indirect denial of the Indefectibility of the Church--i.e., the Church cannot give that which is evil or erroneous to Her members. If, ad arguendo, the apparition at Fatima didn't happen, it didn't produce anything contrary to Faith and Morals. Yet, it if came from Satan, there would have to be things contrary to Faith and/or morals, because the adversary of mankind does not do anything for our benefit.
My further research into Fatima, which I did in preparing this post, has made me see a nuance; I don't think it is possible to outright reject an approved private revelation without committing a sin of disdain against ecclesiastical authority. Hence, were one to reject Fatima (not as being diabolic, but just withholding belief) I personally don't think that can be done without concurrently holding the Church in contempt. (I have authorities to back up my assertion, but I submit all to the judgement of Holy Mother Church, should a true pope ever reign once more. I am not "making up sins" but as I shall hope to demonstrate, I honestly don't see how contempt for the Church cannot accompany discarding approved private revelations. It would never be heresy, but one cannot hold the Church in contempt without sin of some kind---Introibo).
In this post I will explain why I believe in Fatima, and for good reasons that should make all Traditionalists accept it as "worthy of belief."
The greatest reason to accept the apparitions of the Most Blessed Virgin Mary at Fatima is the approval of His Holiness Pope Pius XII.
On June 13, 1940, Pope Pius XII issued the encyclical Saeculo Exeunte Octavo, issued on the occasion of the eighth centenary of the independence of Portugal. After exhorting Portugal to expand its missionary work, the Pontiff mentions Fatima directly in paragraph #17:
This holy and most urgent intention should have the principal place in the prayers of each priest. Those who have been called to the sacred orders of the contemplative life are to pray for this special intention, and the faithful, when reciting the rosary so highly commended by the Blessed Virgin at Fatima, should entreat this same Virgin to intercede in favor of this divine vocation in order that the missions will flourish. (Emphasis mine).
Paragraph #52 states:
Without doubt God will shower upon the noble nation of Portugal the liberality of His blessings as he did at its birth. And the Blessed Virgin Mary of the Rosary, who is venerated at Fatima and is the same great Mother of God who obtained a great victory at Lepanto, will be with you with her powerful protection. (Emphasis mine).
On August 12, 1950, Pope Pius XII promulgated his encyclical Humani Generis, which exposed and rejected some false opinions threatening to undermine the foundations of Catholic doctrine. His Holiness asked the great Thomist and Dominican theologian, Fr. Reginald Garrigou-Lagrange, a fervent anti-Modernist, to draft the encyclical. Paragraph number 20 of that document states:
Nor must it be thought that what is expounded in Encyclical Letters does not of itself demand consent, since in writing such Letters the Popes do not exercise the supreme power of their Teaching Authority. For these matters are taught with the ordinary teaching authority, of which it is true to say: "He who heareth you, heareth me"; and generally what is expounded and inculcated in Encyclical Letters already for other reasons appertains to Catholic doctrine. But if the Supreme Pontiffs in their official documents purposely pass judgment on a matter up to that time under dispute, it is obvious that that matter, according to the mind and will of the Pontiffs, cannot be any longer considered a question open to discussion among theologians. (Emphasis mine).
Let's be clear: what is expounded in encyclical letters demands assent, and in an encyclical, Pope Pius XII states as a matter of fact that the Blessed Mother appeared at Fatima and "highly commended" the daily recitation of the rosary. Furthermore, it is the same Blessed Mother at Fatima who obtained the victory at the Battle of Lepanto. It is evident that Pope Pius believed in Fatima and uses the message of Fatima in a Magisterial document. Would the Holy Ghost permit a true pope to teach using a false/non-existent apparition? I answer in the negative.
Radio Address of October 31, 1942
Pius XII broadcasted a radio address (Benedicite Deum) to pilgrims gathered at the Shrine of Fatima to mark the silver jubilee of the apparitions. In this broadcast, he specifically mentioned the events of Fatima and concluded by consecrating the world to the Immaculate Heart of Mary. (See Papal Documents on Mary, compiled and arranged by W.J. Doheny, C.S.C. and J.P. Kelly, S.T.D., [1954], pgs. 202-204).
In his treatise "Authentic Teaching of the Magisterium," theologian Cotter teaches:
The Pope [Pius XII] has no doubt that those Catholic theologians whom he has in mind throughout the encyclical [Humani Generis] are willing to abide by the definitive decisions of the Magisterium, those handed down, solemni iudicio, They are neither heretics nor schismatics. But he complains that they ignore papal pronouncements that come to them with less authority, such as encyclicals. If reputable theologians have disagreed in the past, that assume that nothing less than a solemn definition can settle the matter; and as long as none such is forthcoming, everyone is presumed free to construe papal documents according to his own interpretation of Tradition.
In reply, the Pope reminds them that encyclicals, besides often containing matters of dogma, may intend to settle points hitherto disputed, and that such decisions demand of themselves a positive assent on the part of the faithful, theologians included. In issuing them the popes exercise what is technically known as the Ordinary or Authentic Magisterium, of which it is true to say: "He that heareth you, heareth Me."
(As cited in Contemporary Moral Theology, [1962], 1:24-26).
Theologian Cotter notes, though the papal statement refers primarily to encyclicals, it is not restricted to these. Rather, it covers the whole range of what is called the "Ordinary Magisterium" of the Holy Father. Everything that has been said, therefore, could apply to the papal radio messages and allocutions; yet, since these have played such a prominent part in papal teaching (especially under Pope Pius XII), they merit special attention. Pope Pius XII himself, made it strikingly clear that his discourses, even when given to small groups, can contain authoritative teaching for the whole Church.
Again, would the Holy Ghost allow an authentic exercise of Magisterial authority to include an apparition which was non-existent? I answer in the negative.
Raising the church in the Cova da Iria at Fatima to the rank of a minor basilica in 1954
The Basilica of Our Lady of the Rosary is located in the Cova da Iria area of Fátima, Portugal—the exact site where three shepherd children first reported visions of the Virgin Mary in 1917. Pope Pius XII officially elevated the sanctuary to a Minor Basilica on November 11, 1954.
In the papal letter, the Pope refers to the shrine of Fatima as the place "where the Mother of God appeared in recent times as Our Lady of the Rosary," and adds that in the church are entombed the bodies of Francis and Jacinta Marto "who were privileged to behold the marvelous vision of the Mother of God." He also confesses his "special devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary of Fatima."
(See thecatholicnewsarchive.org/?a=d&d=tmon19630405-01.2.128&e=-------en-20--1--txt-txIN).
Additional Magisterial authority affirms Fatima
- On May 13, 1930--after 13 years of investigating---Bishop da Silva of Leiria (the diocese in which Fatima is contained) gave official approval to the apparitions:
In virtue of considerations made known, and others which for reason of brevity we omit; humbly invoking the Divine Spirit and placing ourselves under the protection of the most Holy Virgin, and after hearing the opinions of our Rev. Advisors in this diocese, we hereby:
Declare worthy of belief, the visions of the shepherd children in the Cova da Iria, parish of Fatima, in this diocese, from the 13th May to 13th October, 1917.
- On October 1, 1930 the Sacred Penitentiary under Pope Pius XI granted a partial indulgence to those who individually visited the Shrine and prayed for the intentions of the Holy Father, and a plenary indulgence once a month to those who went there in a group. No doubt, the Vatican knew of the pending approval from the diocesan bishop.
Would the Holy Ghost permit the Church to give indulgences to a false/non-existent apparition? Once more, I answer in the negative.
Second Reason: The Miracle of the Sun
On October 13, 1917, approximately 70,000 people gathered in Fatima despite heavy rain, waiting to see if Mary’s promise would come true. Suddenly, the clouds broke, and the sun began to spin, change colors, and zigzag across the sky—something that seemingly defied all natural laws. Many thought it was the end of the world, while others fell to their knees in awe.
However, skeptics claim that the Miracle was the result of a mass hallucination, rare atmospheric events, and the like. I could spend several posts just on these claims, yet I will make a terse explanation of why said claims fail:
- The timing of the event. The children (Lucia, Jacinta, and Francesco) told of the event beforehand. When skeptics claim rare meteorological events took place, in 1917 without modern technology, it is more than mere coincidence that the "rare events" happened on the same day predicted.
- The event could have been supernaturally caused. The event could have been superimposed on the minds of the attendees with physical consequences to accompany it (e.g. wet clothes drying).
- The event was widely reported in mainstream, secular newspapers at the time. Notably, O Seculo, a prominent anti-clerical, pro-Mason, and secular newspaper in Lisbon, featured the headline "Como o sol bailou em Fátima ao meio-dia" ("How the sun danced at Fátima at noon") written by its founding director, Avelino de Almeida.
- Even the most God-hating atheists cannot simply dismiss it. The "New Atheist" Richard Dawkins, mentions Fatima's Miracle of the Sun in his God-hating book The God Delusion:
Yet, it was most likely supernaturally imposed. How else can you explain:
- Pope Pius XII saw the Miracle of Fatima four separate times.
(See, e.g., https://aleteia.org/2019/05/13/pope-pius-xii-witnessed-the-fatima-miracle-of-the-sun-while-walking-in-the-vatican-gardens).
Pope Pius never said he was "looking back in time," but rather that he saw the same phenomena, giving credence to the Miracle of the Sun as supernaturally imposed on the minds of the people chosen by God. It could have been accompanied by physical wonders as well in 1917. This explains why (a few) of the 70,000 allegedly saw nothing, God chose not to reveal the wonder to some for reasons known but to God Himself. Many atheists and skeptics were converted by the Miracle of the Sun.
Third Reason: The Holiness of the Seers
The three children had true sanctity at a young age demonstrated by the following:
Spirit of Reparation: After receiving a terrifying vision of hell, the children felt intense compassion for sinners. They dedicated their daily lives—offering up their lunches, enduring physical thirst, and wearing rough ropes—as acts of penance for the salvation of souls.
Devotion to the Rosary: They faithfully obeyed Our Lady’s request to pray the Rosary daily for world peace and the conversion of sinners.
Joy in Suffering: Despite enduring severe persecution, threats of death from local authorities, and the physical ravages of the 1918 influenza pandemic, the children maintained an unwavering, joyful trust in God.
Unlike the so-called "seers" of Garabandal and Medjugorje, the children of Fatima led holy lives. Francesco and Jacinta died as children and endured much, offering it up for the conversion of sinners. Lucia became a very holy nun. The three seers never made money off of Fatima, nor did they lead worldly lives like those of the false non-Church approved apparitions. Unfortunately, they cannot be called saints as Francesco and Jacinta were "canonized" by non-pope Bergoglio. Lucia likewise cannot be called "Venerable," as it was declared by the Vatican II sect, not the Roman Catholic Church.
Fourth Reason: The Catholicity of the Message of Fatima
Fatima has several basic messages which are theologically sound, and laudable:
1. Pray the Rosary Daily
Mary asked the children to pray the Rosary every day for peace in the world and the conversion of sinners. This is why the Rosary is often associated with Fatima.
2. Offer Sacrifices for Sinners
She encouraged the children to offer small sacrifices for the conversion of souls, uniting their suffering with Christ’s.
3. The Vision of Hell
In July, Mary showed them a terrifying vision of hell, reminding them of the urgency of repentance and the need to pray for those far from God. Hell is real, and we need to save our souls, avoiding eternal torment away from God.
4. Consecration to the Immaculate Heart of Mary
Mary revealed that Russia would spread great evils unless it was consecrated to her Immaculate Heart—a request that later played a major role in Church history.
(Taken from: focus.org/posts/what-happened-at-fatima-our-lady-of-fatima-explained; it sums up the message of Fatima well, yet I do not endorse the site--it is Vatican II sect).
I would like to add to the Message of Fatima, the importance of wearing the Scapular, and making the Church-approved and spiritually fruitful devotion of the Five First Saturdays in reparation for the offenses committed against the Immaculate Heart of Mary.
Fifth Reason: The Church Encourages the Messages of Approved Private Revelations
Is there any obligation on the part of the faithful to give credence to approved revelations? According to several approved theologians, the answer is a resounding YES:
Theologian Slater: It is not heresy, though sinful, to reject what is known to have been revealed by God in a private revelation. (Manual of Moral Theology, [1925], pg. 111; Emphasis mine). This would seem to apply only to the seer.
Theologian Tanquerey: Many theologians are of the opinion that the persons themselves to whom such revelations are made and those for whom they are destined may believe in them with real Faith, provided they have had clear proof of their authenticity. (See The Spiritual Life: A Treatise on Ascetical and Mystical Theology, [1930], pg. 701; Emphasis mine). Fatima is an approved private revelation, whose message was intended for Catholics throughout the world.
Theologian Connell: A private revelation must be believed by those individuals for whom it is intended. However, no one is obliged to believe the statement of another that a private revelation has been made for him unless good assurance has been given that it is really from God. [Church approval is good assurance] Usually such assurance is given through evident miracles. [The Miracle of the Sun] Persons for whom the revelation is not intended are not bound to accept it as a divine message, although they would do wrong if they positively denied it or derided it when there is good evidence that it came from God.(See Outlines of Moral Theology [1952], pg.67; Emphasis mine).
Theologian Marin: If, after a prudent judgment, it is determined that a given revelation is authentic, the one who has received the revelation should accept it in the spirit of faith. It is disputed among the theologians whether this act of faith is an act of divine faith; it seems to us that it is. Moreover, if a private revelation contains a message for others and it has been accepted as an authentic revelation, those persons also have an obligation to accept the truth of the revelation and act upon it.
(See The Theology of Christian Perfection, [1954], pg.661; Emphasis mine).
Theologian Van Noort: It seems indisputable that even a private revelation—at least if it is concerned with matters bearing some relationship to God as our goal—can be believed by the same virtue of faith by which we believe a truth publicly revealed…Granting that the divine origin of the revelation can be established with certainty, the question arises whether such revelations not only can be believed but ought to be believed. Briefly we think the answer is this: such a revelation ought to be believed both by the one who receives it and by those for whom it is destined: the rest of the faithful cannot outrightly deny it without some sort of sin.
(See Dogmatic Theology, [1961], 3:215).
Hence, Church approved private revelations seem to have some obligation for the faithful to whom they are directed. Think of the Most Sacred Heart of Jesus during this month of June. Can anyone worthy of the name Catholic seriously deny the authenticity of the private revelations of St. Margaret Mary Alacoque? Fatima has an incredible amount of evidence and the full approval of Pope Pius XII (and the implicit approval of Pope Pius XI). It's message is for all true Catholics the world over. In the words of theologian Van Noort, I don't think you can "outrightly deny it" without contempt for the Church and "some sort of sin." I retract my hitherto held belief that denying an approved private revelation outright can be done without concomitant contempt for Holy Mother Church.
Objections Considered
There are many objections raised against Fatima, and I cannot possibly address them all. In this time of Great Apostasy, one must remember that without a pope, there is no Magisterial authority that can pass judgement on these issues and make necessary clarifications and distinctions. To bring them up only serves to sow doubt in the minds of the faithful when (in a very real sense) the Church cannot currently defend Her actions regarding the approval of Fatima.
Objection: The Blessed Mother was reported as appearing immodestly dressed.
Reply: Much of this "information" comes from sources of a dubious nature. Certain files are touted as "definitive" when such simply is not the case. Unfortunately, we can't get a Roman Congregation or a pope to give us the authentic sources in the Great Apostasy. Our Lady of Fatima said, “Certain fashions will be introduced that will offend Our Lord very much.” How does that jibe with the alleged reports of her immodest dress? Where did this accusation arise? Read the next objection and find out.
Objection: Fatima was predicted by occultists and is occult (of Satan).
Reply: An approved apparition cannot be of Satan. The Holy Ghost would not permit it.
A group of occult psychics in Portu, Portugal claimed that “something transcendental” would occur on May 13,1917. And this was published in the Portuguese newspaper Jornal de Notícias. There was another prediction claimed to have been written on February 7, 1917 in Furtado de Mendonça, Portugal by way of “automatic writing” that moved the psychic’s hand and wrote the following backwards (and in Portuguese):
The day of May 13th will be one of great happiness for the good souls of the world…Always at your side shall ye have your friends, who will guide your steps and who will assist ye in your
work…The brilliant light of the Morning Star will illuminate the path.
~ Stella Matutina
So the above occult prophecy claimed that a lightbringer would illuminate a path on May 13, 1917. Stella is Latin for star. Matutina is associated with the morning. It may be relevant to note that the name Lucifer means lightbringer, and he is associated in sacred scripture with both the morning and stars (Isaiah 14:12-13), as well as becoming known as Satan the devil (Revelation 12:9). Although Jesus is also called the “Morning Star” (Revelation 22:16), using the type of automatic backward writing to reveal His mother does not seem to be biblically appropriate (cf. Isaiah 8:19-20), hence it should not be concluded that this Stella Matutina was Jesus. (From a booklet entitled Why Pay Any Attention To Fatima, [hereinafter "WPATF"] no named author, pg. 33).
What is the source of this information? I referenced the book in the endnotes, Celestial Secrets: The Hidden History of the Fatima Incident (2007) by Joaquim Fernandes and Fina D'Armada. The authors believe that Our Lady was actually an alien sent by a UFO. There is a trio of books (this one and two others) attempting to prove this whacky thesis. Moreover, the books are promoted by Andrew D. Basiago, a "UFOlogist." Besides an attempted run for President of the U.S. in 2016, Basiago claims he:
- Can teleport himself through time and space
- Has made contact with Bigfoot
- Went to Mars in 1981 and converses with Martians who live there
These are the people we are supposed to believe over Church authority regarding Fatima. The trilogy is itself occult (talking to "beings from other worlds"--more than likely demons if not delusions of mental illness) and used by anti-Catholics to make Fatima look "demonic." Moreover, occultists will often use the superior knowledge of demons to make something true appear false and vice-versa--if such an occult prediction even happened. No less than 20 of the 96 endnotes reference this occult book.
Accusation: The Blessed Mother was allegedly dressed immodestly.
Throughout the book, much is made of alleged claims by the seers of Fatima that Mary was immodestly dressed. From WPATF:
In 1917, the Catholic priest and investigator Canon Manuel Nunes Formigao interviewed the three Fatima children. Here is some of what he wrote:
Jacinta confirms that Our Lady’s dress fell only to the knees… Our Lady obviously could not have appeared other than dressed with the utmost decency and modesty…{This} constitutes a serious problem, opposing the very validity of the Apparition, giving rise in the spirit to the dread that this whole affair is a mystification, prepared by the Prince of Darkness. (pgs. 25-26).
This information is supplied by (you guessed it) Celestial Secrets. The dominant instrument used by the authors and promoters of that book, to convince the reader of their research prowess and to buildup interest and credibility for their product, is the highlighting of their previous visit to the secured Fatima Shrine archives in 1978. During that visit they were permitted to view the largely unknown personal notes of the local Fatima priests of that year of 1917, especially those who had directly interviewed the children. They have since been made public in 1992. They tell a different story from the cherry-picked quotes.
These initial recorded accounts by seer Jacinta (and Lucia) are tellingly conflicting with the young seer Francisco's descriptions, where the only knee-length clothing that he reports throughout all of his testimony was the mantle headpiece, a fact conveniently omitted, along with the fact that an investigative priest is supposed to be skeptical and not jump to supernatural conclusions in favor of the apparition. Even after that, the demonic must be considered as well. Lucia and Jacinta were no doubt scared by the questioning, and even probably misunderstood by the priest. The manifest weight of all the evidence explains why the Bishop approved the apparition as authentic upon the final report in 1930.
Objection: The children at Fatima were given Holy Communion from a Chalice. That's against Church law. They were not fasting, and Francesco wasn't even sure what he received.
Reply: These are many objections that center on Church law, not Natural or Divine Positive Law. God can dispense from any ecclesiastical law. From the Decree of the Sacred Congregation of the Discipline of the Sacraments on First Communion, issued in 1910 under Pope St. Pius X, it reads:
The Catholic Church, bearing this in mind, took care even from the beginning to bring the little ones to Christ through Eucharistic Communion, which was administered even to nursing infants. This, as was prescribed in almost all ancient Ritual books, was done at Baptism until the thirteenth century, and this custom prevailed in some places even later. It is still found in the Greek and Oriental Churches. But to remove the danger that infants might eject the Consecrated Host, the custom obtained from the beginning of administering the Eucharist to them under the species of wine only...
From all this it is clear that the age of discretion for receiving Holy Communion is that at which the child knows the difference between the Eucharistic Bread and ordinary, material bread, and can therefore approach the altar with proper devotion. Perfect knowledge of the things of faith, therefore, is not required, for an elementary knowledge suffices-some knowledge (aliqua cognitio); similarly full use of reason is not required, for a certain beginning of the use of reason, that is, some use of reason (aliqualis usus rationis) suffices. (Emphasis mine).
It is clear there is nothing contrary to Divine Positive Law regarding Holy Communion under the species of Wine, and "some use of reason"--(knowing the Eucharist is special) suffices. It was on this basis that the mentally retarded were allowed to receive Communion. Hence, Francesco knew receiving something (Communion) from an angel must be special. These "arguments" display a serious lack of theological knowledge.
Objection: Lucia made predictions that didn't come true. Had the Blessed Mother truly spoken to her, the predictions would have been true. Lucia was wrong about the war ending soon, and Portugal did NOT "keep the dogma of the Faith" after Vatican II.
Reply: Did Lucia really make "false predictions"? Some point to the prediction that if men didn't amend their lives a worse war (WWII) would begin "During the pontificate of Pope Pius XI." WWII began on September 1, 1939 with Hitler's invasion of Poland, almost six months into the pontificate of Pope Pius XII. Or did it? Many historians have WWII in four phases, and while the war in the West began in 1939, in the East it began with the invasion of China by the Imperial Japanese in 1937--during the pontificate of Pope Pius XI.
What about when Lucia claimed the war (WWI) would end "today" or "soon" and it didn't end until November 11, 1918? According to an amazing compilation on Fatima by Bernard F. Kahout entitled Fatima the Spectacular (2017) there are over twenty (20) differently worded statements o this point by the children of Fatima (Lucia and Jacinta principally). It makes sense given the length of the interrogations and their young age. I can't possibly repeat it all here, but a good case can be made that what Lucia said was "pray that the war come to an end." (See pgs. 44-55). No contradiction there. Lastly, we have no Magisterial authority to tell us which statement was the one truly stated by Our Lady. So why make a big deal of something that quite probably wasn't even said?
Lastly, a problem for me was the statement that "Portugal will always keep the dogma of the faith." According to many reports, I discovered the statement does NOT end with a period but an ellipsis. That makes it part of a sentence, and we don't know why the other part was left out or what it said. It might have read, "Portugal will always keep the dogma of the Faith until the end of the reign of Pope Pius XII" or similar words "until the second half of the 20th century," "until there is a false ecumenical council called by a false pope," etc.
Conclusion
Did Our Lady appear at Fatima? Most assuredly, she did. I can no more deny Fatima than I can deny the revelations of Our Lord to His great saint, Margaret Mary Alacoque. However, I will not make private revelations the focal point of the Faith, nor should anyone. Can we simply deny Fatima (or any approved revelation) without contempt for the Church and some sin? I don't believe we can.
What is the purpose of having a Magisterium if we don't heed Her when She tells us what we can believe? Can we ever go wrong by believing in something the Church tells us is "worthy of belief"? No. Can we ever go wrong by not believing what the Church tells us is "worthy of belief"? In many different ways we can, and most probably will. Our Lady of Fatima, ora pro nobis

Steven Speray was one of those who denied it. Thank you very much for this article Introibo.
ReplyDeleteRyan,
DeleteThank you my friend! Please keep in mind, that the purpose of my post is not to point fingers but merely lay out the reasons why Fatima should be believed.
God Bless,
---Introibo
Was Father Manuel Marques Ferreira (the local parish priest) committing a sin when he didn't believe in the children and called it demonic? He didn't even go to see the miracle and it appears that he was always skeptical.
ReplyDelete@anon6:01
DeleteNo, because the Church SHOULD be skeptical (and is such) if and until it is approved. He is a priest devoid of Magisterial authority. Did he write or preach against it AFTER the bishop approved and AFTER Pope Pius XI granted the indulgence? AFTER the 1940 approval of Pope Pius XII? I'll trust two pontiffs and the bishop over a mere priest who got it wrong.
God Bless,
---Introibo
I believe Fatima is authentic, and while I'm not a great devotee of this apparition, I always end my recitation of the Rosary by asking Our Lady of Fatima to pray for us. Let us listen to what Our Lady and the Church tell us and not listen to the so-called experts.
ReplyDeleteSimon
DeleteRight on!
God Bless,
---Introibo
It would be a nice gesture on the part of Mr. Speray to retract his article and issue an apology.
ReplyDeleteTo anonymous 7:18 Why would Mr Speray do that when nothing in Introibo's article refuted any of the facts Mr Speray presented?
Delete@anon7:18
DeleteSteve is a good man. I'm sure he's meditating and praying about all of this information.
God Bless,
---Introibo
@anon3:20
DeleteLol!
Thank you Introibo for clearing this up. One thing I am not sure about given the witness testimony to the Miracle of the Sun is the movement of the sun itself. Did it actually move around or did the sun 'dance in place' with its surface displaying different colour effects like that of a C64 'demo' program ? Perhaps it was both. I've often wondered why She would do it that way.
ReplyDeletecairsahr__stjoseph
DeleteI'm not sure, and I don't think it makes a difference. It was miraculous in nature either way.
God Bless,
---Introibo
There's been natural explanations all of which makes sense. The question is Lucia's testimony on the consecration in 1984 is problematic. The fake Lucia story is out there like the fake Paul 6. How much nonsense do we need? Next will be ufo disclosure.
Delete@anon5:49
DeleteThe natural explanations don't go very far. Fr. Jacki, a priest and scientist, is one of many who showed that to be the case. The Modernists at the Vatican have obscured much and I wouldn't trust anything in 1984, or later when Ratzinger tried to explain away the Third Secret.
God Bless,
---Introibo
What about Lucia supporting JP2 and his consecration? She was a novus ordo and died the same year as JP2. It doesnt look good for Fatima and how the novus ordo see it in support of the Vatican2 religion. Now the crazies come out with a fake Lucy to justify Fatima.
Delete@anon6:20
DeleteI thought it crazy too about the fake Sr Lucia, but based on solid evidence from Novus Ordo Watch, it doesn’t seem far-fetched at all. Mario Derksen is one of the most grounded men I’ve ever known.
Yet, just because someone has had a revelation doesn’t make them infallible. Lucia was a simple woman. Many great clerics were very confused and accepted the false popes at the beginning.
Remember, the Church only approved the 1917 apparitions, nothing more, and it doesn’t make the seer an oracle.
—-Introibo
Unfortunately, much of the message and secrets associated with Fatima have been filtered by the Modernists in Rome. We simply do not know how much of the actual message was corrupted by those Modernists. Besides, all those messages and secrets are private revelation. The Church says there was an apparition worthy of belief. That is all I need to know. I do not speculate on all the secrets.
ReplyDeleteTom,
DeleteYes, the actual messages were tampered with by the Modernists and your attitude is the Catholic one.
God Bless,
---Introibo
As always, an excellent and very interesting article, dear Introibo. May God reward you for your work in defense of the Faith and Our Lady.
ReplyDeleteThere is our Spanish translation: https://wwwmileschristi.blogspot.com/2026/06/defensa-de-las-apariciones-en-fatima.html
For the record: That “Furtado de Mendonça” is not a place, but a person: Filipe Furtado de Mendonça (fl. c.1920 - 1981). He was a journalist and popularizer of Spiritism who wrote a pamphlet titled “Um raio de luz sobre Fátima” (A Ray of Light on Fátima), in which he mentions that this episode of “automatic writing” took place during a séance led by the singer and medium Carlos Calderón (in Portuguese: http://ctec.ufp.pt/quando-o-jn-e-o-dn-anteciparam-o-13-de-maio/).
Miles Christi resistens
DeleteThank you for spreading the word and for that great piece of information, my friend!
God Bless,
---Introibo
To Miles, Rejecting Fatima is not an attack on Our Lady. The Eastern Orthodox love Our Lady and they don't accept any Catholic apparition.
DeleteTo Anonymous 6:23.
DeleteNot only do those who reject ecclesiastically recognized apparitions dishonor Our Lady, but also (and even more so) those who reject the doctrine concerning Her.
In this sense, the Eastern “Orthodox” schismatics do not love Our Lady, because in their war against the Roman Church, they reject the dogma of the Immaculate Conception as a “diabolical deception,” even though the Eastern Fathers themselves praise this truth of the faith.
In fact, we have an article (in Spanish) that addresses this topic:
https://wwwmileschristi.blogspot.com/2017/12/cuando-los-focianos-eran-inmaculistas.html
He that has ear, let him hear.
ReplyDelete@anon12:10
DeleteIndeed!
God Bless,
---Introibo
I do not believe that our Heavenly mother would have her children stare at the sun. Anyways, they see the miracle of the sun all the time at Medjugorge apparently. The file Steven Speray used to quote the kids about the length of the dress didn’t come from occult sources. It came from a book published in 1950 that you can buy from EWTN. I don’t think you sufficiently answered the charge that they were wrong about when WWI would end. You also did not address the Fatima prayer, which is heretical. Why would an angel give communion? Only priests can consecrate a host. Where did the angel get it? Why would Mary give a secret for the Pope when she already did that at La Salette? Pius XII consecrated Russia to the immaculate Heart: so why hasn’t it converted? To me Fatima is a mystery wrapped in a riddle inside an enigma. But I think the key to understanding is that Fatima Prayer, which I know is heretical.
ReplyDelete@anon1:46
DeleteYou write: "I do not believe that our Heavenly mother would have her children stare at the sun."
Reply: Obviously, it was miraculous as no one went blind.
You write: "Anyways, they see the miracle of the sun all the time at Medjugorge apparently"
Reply: Yes, and the pagan magicians were able to replicate the miracles of Moses to discredit him. (See Exodus chapters 7 & 8).
You write: "The file Steven Speray used to quote the kids about the length of the dress didn’t come from occult sources. It came from a book published in 1950 that you can buy from EWTN."
Reply: Read what I wrote above:
"These initial recorded accounts by seer Jacinta (and Lucia) are tellingly conflicting with the young seer Francisco's descriptions, where the only knee-length clothing that he reports throughout all of his testimony was the mantle headpiece, a fact conveniently omitted, along with the fact that an investigative priest is supposed to be skeptical and not jump to supernatural conclusions in favor of the apparition. Even after that, the demonic must be considered as well. Lucia and Jacinta were no doubt scared by the questioning, and even probably misunderstood by the priest. The manifest weight of all the evidence explains why the Bishop approved the apparition as authentic upon the final report in 1930. "
You write: "I don’t think you sufficiently answered the charge that they were wrong about when WWI would end."
Reply: Read "Fatima the Spectacular" referenced above. An in-depth account of how it is not wrong.
You write: "You also did not address the Fatima prayer, which is heretical."
Reply: I have seen various versions of that prayer. What is the specific wording you think is "heretical" and no true pope (Benedict XV, Pius XI and Pius XII) was able to discern. The one I know "O My Jesus, forgive us our sins, save us from the fires of Hell and lead all souls to Heaven, especially those most in need of Thy Mercy." No problem there.
You write: "Why would an angel give communion? Only priests can consecrate a host."
Reply: No one claimed the Host was consecrated by the angel. Where did he get It? Christ. Angels have given Communion to Catholics miraculously in the lives of many great saints, such as St. Clare of Assisi.
You write: "Why would Mary give a secret for the Pope when she already did that at La Salette?"
Reply: Is the Blessed Virgin prohibited from doing so? Says who? Also, at LaSalette, part of the messages/secrets were CONDEMNED by the Supreme Sacred Congregation of the Holy Office.
You write: Pius XII consecrated Russia to the immaculate Heart: so why hasn’t it converted?
Reply: For this you need Magisterial authority to give an answer. Who knows the timeline?
God Bless,
---Introibo
Russia is closer to conversion than the US. SMH.
DeleteOr it was a preternatural deception. It’s as if she had said, “I will perform a miracle. So drink this poison.” A mother would never entice her children to do that.
DeleteWhy would she expect a false pope to reveal a secret about the future in 1960? It doesn’t make sense.
The Fatima prayer anticipates Balthasar. If you can’t see that you are blind.
What if she came back a THIRD time with a secret. Would you think this is getting strange? That’s one good point Bergoglio made about Medjugorge, when he said Our Lady is not a postmistress.
I don’t think you’re right about La Salette. What part of the secret was condemned?
I don’t know how the popes didn’t get this one right. But it doesn’t surprise me entirely. They also nixed the St Michael prayer. And after all, Pius XII did make Roncalli a cardinal.
@anon12:01
DeleteYou write: "Or it was a preternatural deception. It’s as if she had said, “I will perform a miracle. So drink this poison.” A mother would never entice her children to do that."
Reply: Really? Christ did that. In St. Matthew chapter 14,
During a severe night storm, Jesus commanded Peter to "Come" out of the safety of his boat and walk onto the water. The lake was experiencing heavy waves and battered by fierce winds. Stepping out of a boat into a raging storm normally results in immediate submersion and drowning. Yet, Peter successfully stepped out and walked on top of the water toward Jesus. Although he began to sink when he took his eyes off Jesus and panicked due to the wind, Jesus immediately caught him and saved his life. Your idea of what God and His Mother would or would not do, is different from their idea.
You write: "Why would she expect a false pope to reveal a secret about the future in 1960? It doesn’t make sense."
Reply: Lots of things make no sense when you are not privy to all the facts. Ditto for you assertion about secrets.
You write: "I don’t think you’re right about La Salette. What part of the secret was condemned?"
Reply: Here is the text of the Decree as published in 1915 with full approval of Pope Benedict XV:
"THE SUPREME SACRED CONGREGATION OF THE HOLY OFFICE DECREE CONCERNING THE COMMONLY CALLED "SECRET OF LA SALETTE."
It has come to the attention of this Supreme Congregation that certain ones are not lacking, even from among the ecclesiastic assemblage who, responses and decisions of this Holy Congregation itself having been disregarded, do proceed to discuss and examine through books, small works and articles edited in periodicals, whether signed or without a name, concerning the so-called Secret of La Salette, its diverse forms and its relevance to present and future times; and, this not only without permission of the Ordinaries, but, also against their ban. So that these abuses which oppose true piety and greatly wound ecclesiastical authority might be curbed, the same Sacred Congregation orders all the faithful of any region not to discuss or investigate under any pretext, neither through books, or little works or articles, whether signed or unsigned, or in any other way of any kind, about the mentioned subject. Whoever, indeed, violates this precept of the Holy Office, if they are priests, are deprived of all dignity and suspended by the local ordinary from hearing sacramental confessions and from offering Mass: and, if they are lay people, they are not permitted to the sacraments until they repent. Moreover, let people be subject to the sanctions given both by Pope Leo XIII through the Constitution of the offices and responsibilities against those who publish books dealing with religious things without legitimate permission of superiors and by Urban VIII through the decree "Sanctissimus Dominus Noster" given on 13th March 1625 against those who publish asserted revelations without the permission of ordinaries. However, this decree does not forbid devotion towards the Blessed Virgin under the title of Reconciliatrix commonly of La Salette.
Given at Rome on 21st December, 1915.
Aloisius Castellano, S. R. and U. I. Notary."
You write: "I don’t know how the popes didn’t get this one right. But it doesn’t surprise me entirely. They also nixed the St Michael prayer. And after all, Pius XII did make Roncalli a cardinal."
Reply: The popes always get it right when approving apparitions because of the protection of the Holy Ghost. Making ecclesiastical appointments (like cardinals) has no such protection.
God Bless,
---Introibo
Peter was a fisherman. I'm sure he could swim. He jumped in the water to swim to Jesus in one instance. Staring at the sun is different. And I think there is also a difference when you tell kids to do something dangerous. What if people had started staring at the sun after the event to see if they would see it again?
DeleteAs I thought, you were wrong about La Salette. No part of the secret was condemned. They put a prohibition on discussing and investigating it. They never said any part of it was not true.
@anon12:01 Our Lady's requirement that the 3rd secret be revealed in 1960 reveals the antipope who disobeyed by that fact and without giving away the secret. It also tells us what we need to know without that fact itself needing to be a secret - self-revealing as it were. (So the secret probably deals with the long term consequences of this more than the subversion itself).
DeleteOur Lady could not very well have predicted antipopes openly without undermining the true Holy See (for people would then be wondering when it would happen) and thus making recognition of the apparitions impossible. Besides which the devil would simply change his tactics so it is useless to announce his plans openly and in detail.
Hope this helps. +JMJ+
@anon6:43
DeleteSo you would tell someone to swim in waters during a raging storm where even the best of swimmers drown? Says a lot about your discernment.
Can you read? "...concerning the so-called Secret of La Salette, its diverse forms and its relevance to present and future times; and, this not only without permission of the Ordinaries, but, also against their ban. " "so-called" secret, and it had been BANNED by bishops with Ordinary jurisdiction on suspicion of heresy (if you look at the episcopal bans). The bishops didn't buy it and the Holy Office sided with them.
---Introibo
I did not say I would tell someone to go swimming in a storm. But I suppose I would not have stopped Peter had I been in the boat. He was a grown man and Christ is God. I would though advise anyone to never stare at the sun. Especially kids.
DeleteYes I can read. There is a difference between things “concerning” the secret and the secret itself. I’ve read a lot about La Salette and everyone I know understands the ban as pertaining to the discussion that was going on about it. But you said part of it was condemned. You were simply wrong about that.
@anon7:24
DeleteFact: God told someone to do something that is life threatening. What the Mother of God did was LESS. The Magisterium likewise disagrees with your opinion, and that’s all that matters.
As I stated previously many bishops CONDEMNED the Secret (at least in part) and the Holy Officer did not overrule their decision.
—-Introibo
I think Steve Speray's article was better. He didnt get bogged down in the reasons for believing when it has false prophecies. Speray doesnt believe Pius II was a true pope.either. I believe Fatima was demonic.
ReplyDelete@anon1:52
DeleteThen you are a vacancy pusher like Ibranyi. You better make the last pope Benedict XV---Pope Pius XI gave indulgences for Fatima. Soon you can get back to 1130AD.
---Introibo
The official documentation of Fatima tells us how our Lady was dressed. It's not dubious. You're lying about the facts.
ReplyDelete@anon1:55
DeleteIf you want to challenge something, fine. Don't attack my character, I'm no liar. It is dubious as to the reports of the children themselves. All was resolved by the MAGISTERIUM. Read what I wrote above. If Our Lady was fake because immodestly dressed, it would be impossible for a two true popes to sanction the apparition as "worthy of belief" as Popes Pius XI and XII were protected by the Holy Ghost.
---Introibo
It's not dubious. It's in the official interview with their own priest who didn't believe because of that description. Your popes were either fooled or they aren't popes.
Delete@anon4:47
DeleteLet me repeat what I wrote:
These initial recorded accounts by seer Jacinta (and Lucia) are tellingly conflicting with the young seer Francisco's descriptions, where the only knee-length clothing that he reports throughout all of his testimony was the mantle headpiece, a fact conveniently omitted, along with the fact that an investigative priest is supposed to be skeptical and not jump to supernatural conclusions in favor of the apparition. Even after that, the demonic must be considered as well. Lucia and Jacinta were no doubt scared by the questioning, and even probably misunderstood by the priest. The manifest weight of all the evidence explains why the Bishop approved the apparition as authentic upon the final report in 1930. "
Did you interview that priest? Were you privy to all the deliberations? Were you present when small children were scared and tired? Most importantly---are you protected from giving evil and error to the Church by the Holy Ghost?
The answer to all is in the negative.
---Introibo
We have the documentation which you're conveniently not showing. You assumed the magisterium approved fatima the way everyone assumed the magisterium gave us Vatican 2.
Delete@anon5:43
Delete"We" have documentation? I'm "not showing" it? Yeah. Ok.
FACTS:
* The encyclical of Pope Pius XII gives approval to Fatima--he directly discusses Our Lady of Fatima.
* The radio address of Pope Pius XII gives his approval
* Pope Pius XI gave approval by granting Indulgences for Fatima
* The local bishop with Ordinary Jurisdiction approved and was never reversed in his Judgement by the Vatican.
Fatima was approved by the Magisterium.
---Introibo
well, maybe Pius12 wasn't a true pope? This group says the last true pope was Pius 9 and wrote a book on Fatima saying it was diabolical, especially the vision of hell. the freemasons had been planning for a long time. isn't it possible they had many popes installed all who were influenced by modernism along the way? or the V2 takeover would not have been so successful if the false popes started right at that same time frame?
ReplyDeletehttp://web.archive.org/web/20191219115422/http://ourladysresistance.org/fatima-and-apostasy.html
@anon2:05
DeleteAs I wrote to a commenter above, you become a vacancy pusher. Maybe Pope Pius XI wasn't a true pope either as he gave an indulgence to Fatima. Let's go back to 1130AD like Richard Ibranyi. There is no evidence of apostasy pre-1958, unless you want to twist texts out of context to "prove heresy" like Mike Bizzaro (yes his real name) who has Pope Pius X as the last pope (no saint either since Pius X was canonized by Pius XII).
---Introibo
Aren't you a vacancy pusher? Why are sedes only correct as to last pope? Yes maybe those others you mention are not true Popes either. I don't know who Richard I is but I noted this group who claims Pius 9 last true pope. Your group seems same to me, just a different last true pope. The majority of the world thinks the current Vatican is legitimate so no need for sarcasm for those of us trying to weed our way through this horrible mess.
DeleteThat's not an argument. You're a vacancy pusher to John 23. We're trying to arrive at truth. You're twisting the story to fit your theology. Pius 12 is not Pope for other things, not Fatima. Pius 11 didn't say Fatima is worthy of belief. You're argumentation is that of a lawyer trying to make his side look good rather than an objective observer with real.questions.
Delete@anon5:26
DeleteYou're going down an evil road to perdition. Why is it Pope Pius XII? For many good reasons:
See https://introiboadaltaredei2.blogspot.com/2024/02/a-sedevacantist-primer.html
Pope Pius IX? Keep going. Richard Ibranyi started with Fred and Bobby Dimond and started to apply Feeneyite theology to keep pushing back the time of the vacancy. Currently the last pope died in 1130AD according to Ibranyi,
Here's his disturbing website:
https://www.johnthebaptist.us/jbw_english/default.htm
He has a cult in a New Mexico town called "Truth or Consequences."
Here's my post on Mike Bizzaro, who has Pope St. Pius X as the last true pope:
https://introiboadaltaredei2.blogspot.com/2017/08/pushing-back-time-of-vacancy.html
Don't fall into the Ibranyi pathway vacancy pushing. He lives in Truth or Consequences. Ironically, he has forsaken the Truth and if he doesn't convert, he will face the (eternal) consequences.
Praying for you!
God Bless,
---Introibo
@anon5:39
DeletePope Pius XI granted indulgences to Fatima. That's de facto approval, unless you think a true pope could give a false apparition (or worse a diabolic apparition) Church approval.
Pope Pius XII is not pope for "other things"? He's one of the greatest popes. I'd like to see the "proof"--like that of Bizzaro who makes up principles and wrongly applies them.
---Introibo
The pius 9 group says those are not popes. They say the vision of hell is opposed to God's divine love. Please offer good explanation why Our Blessed Mother would show hell to 2 little children? How many other children seers were shown hell?
Delete@anon6:42
DeleteWell, if the "pius 9 group" says it, you best believe it (unlike a true pope)! There's an excellent reason of showing Hell to the children. In the 20th century, the idea of Hell was beginning to get downplayed.
"Certainly God wouldn't let children go to Hell," they intone. All three children were age 7 or older, meaning they reached the age of reason and were capable of mortal sin--and thereby Hell.
Hell is real, and even children can go there. So, "Work out your salvation with fear and trembling" (Philippians 2:12).
God Bless,
---Introibo
I didn't say I best believe them, so should I best believe you? I simply said they exist. And you advised me of Richard I and said I am on the road to perdition like he is, all for questioning things that don't make sense?
DeleteThe vision of hell didn't seem to help humanity one bit as the world has never been worse.
Did the seers die of fright or a vaccine? There are many doctors reporting from that time, only vaccinated died. Similar to covid 19 fraud and massive death count. Germ theory has never been proven.
Did Sr Lucia really say Mary is our only hope? If so, is that the teaching of the Church?
If we must believe and hold to all the teachings of the Church to be saved but there is no one place or book that has all these teachings, how is anyone saved? After years and years of study, things only get more confusing, not more clear. Sad.
That book would be the Denzinger, which you might be able to find online.
DeleteThose who are willing, at this point, to disbelieve Our Lady of Fatima or Pius XII are not yet so far astray - they are not going to go straight to the antipopes and believe them and the false council as a consequence. As it happens, at this point it is not necessary for everyone to believe the same thing anyway. That can be fixed later.
ReplyDeleteAs for the misunderstanding regarding Our Lady's dress I believe Introibo's reference to Francisco's testimony clears that up. Not enough for some, perhaps; as a consequence of the current apostasy dragging on seemingly endlessly are those beginning to be inclined to suspicion. What can one say to that except some of us have sufficient reason for that never to possibly happen. God bless.
Great article Introibo,
ReplyDeleteI find it strange how some of the comments push this idea that we shouldn't believe in Pope Pius XII. Regardless, Pope Pius XI approved in Fatima as well as the bishop of Fatima. If Pope Pius XI granted an indulgence for making a pilgrimage to it, then why are these anonymous cowards so aggressive in their approach against Fatima when any Catholic is free to believe in it according to the hierarchy? Do they not trust in the popes and bishops, and if not why believe in the Church at all?
-Mark Bentley
To Mark Bentley Do you trust Pope Leo XIV? No, because you don't he's pope? Why? Now apply your own logic to those who approved Fatima like Pius XI who told the Mexican Christeros to stop fighting the antiCatholic government when they were defeating the devils. They trusted the pope and you see where that got them. How far can you trust the Hierarchy if they are even the hierarchy? Perhaps you should take your own advice and listen to Pope Leo XIV.
DeleteMark,
DeleteVacancy Pushers are like Dimondites, they don't understand how the Church teaches and draw crazy conclusions. It gets to the point where (as you suggested) they don't believe in the Church at all, not having understood Her.
God Bless,
---Introibo
@anon7:42
DeleteYou have provided an excellent example of how you fail to understand Catholic doctrine on the papacy. The pope is protected by the Holy Ghost when teaching Infallibly (no mistake possible) and non-infallibly he cannot give error and evil to the Church when teaching. The pope CAN be an evil person (murderer, thief, fornicator, etc.) and remains pope.
Why do Traditionalists reject Prevost? He upholds the false and heretical teaching of Vatican II. They are almost word for word contradictions to all prior Church teaching on ecclesiology, religious liberty, and ecumenism--to name but three.
Pope Pius XI was NOT teaching anything. Pope Pius XI ordered the Cristeros to stop fighting in 1929 primarily to end the bloody persecution of Catholics and restore the sacraments. The armed uprising was a peasant rebellion outmatched by the Mexican federal army. Pius XI feared the complete slaughter of Mexico's Catholic laity if the war continued. His decision in this non-teaching matter is not protected by the Holy Ghost and can be an unfortunate error. He was not teaching the Masonic government to be good. Even if he had BAD motives--that makes him an evil pope, not a non-pope.
By giving Indulgences to Fatima, he WAS teaching that the apparition was laudable and to be an object of veneration. That IS protected by the Holy Ghost lest Catholics venerate something false and evil.
Mark Bentley is correct.
God Bless,
---Introibo
Pardon me, but is the commenter above trying to say we shouldn't trust the popes, follow the popes, believe the popes, or all three? This brings me back to my original question why believe in the Church if you aren't willing to trust, follow, or believe in the popes? If not who do you follow... your own pride?
DeleteI personally do not believe Leo XIV is the pope not because of Fatima but because he manifestly denies the Faith on many things and teaches us a different one. Is the commenter trying to say that Pope Pius XI is equal to Leo XIV (Bob Prevost) as if to say Pope Pius XI is not pope because he tried to stop the war in Mexico? I've never heard of such lunacy.
-Mark B.
ReplyDeleteMy thanks also go out to you, Intro!
You did a great service by reducing the staggering number of words about Fatima from different sources, including the dubious ones, weeding out the incongruities, and turning them into something very reliable, accessible and to the point!
Your article restored some peace of mind to me, too. As a compulsive question asker (LOL), I needed the reminder that Church teaching and common sense should rule the day and that's all that is necessary in the end.
I think all this "bombshell research" presents a problem. Politics and media circus have turned us into cynics in large part. With constant consumption of it, we can end up feeling fooled by everything. In the case of approved apparitions, we can find ourselves not only robbed of the spiritual benefits of the practices of a cherished true devotion to Our Lady (or Our Lord), who delight in our signs of love for them as much as they love us, but we can find our faith, in general, eroded! How bad is that?!
(In regards to Steven Speray, I have read him for years and I believe he is a person of good will, too, who fumbled this one. I hope he climbs out of the rabbit hole of private revelation-debunking and goes back to writing as the intrepid yet reliably Catholic voice we have known for so long.)
I will pass your article on to anyone else I know who is concerned about the topic of Fatima.
God bless you and your readers.
-Jannie
Jannie,
DeleteI'm glad my post helped, and I hope many others are given peace of mind against those spreading confusion and doubt where none should exist! I too hope Steve sees his way clearly; he's a good man.
God Bless,
---Introibo
Jannie, I don't think Steve went down any rabbit hole. He showed that the apparition of Guadalupe never happened. He showed several actual interviews where Lucia falsely prophesied the end of the war and 3rd secret which she claimed woud come to pass by 1960. Nothing happened as she claimed. These are undubious facts that no one has answered. If Introibo could and you think Steve's good he would acknowledge it. Steve has said that when people believe strongly, facts won't matter or they will deny as facts. Have you emailed him and tried to get to the bottom of it or just accept any answer that corresponds to your belief?
Delete@anon9:49
DeleteReally? Please post said videos. The only authentic ones were 1946 and 1957. She was silenced after that. There’s also the debacle of a false Sr Lucia (See Novus Ordo Watch). The war already ended in 1946.
When people believe strongly facts won’t matter. Like the FACT that Fátima has papal approval. But if you’re a Vacancy Pusher, you look to explain away the pope.
—-Introibo
@anon 9:49
DeleteIn "The Whole Truth About Fatima" (Vol.1) Frere Michel already accounted for Lucia's mistake, and which was glossed over by Speray. But I have another solution: Lucia did not mean to say that Our Lady said the war would end -today-, that very day, but she meant that "Our Lady said today the war would end" or another paraphrase "today Our Lady said the war would end". It is easy when one is 10 years old and rattled and tired and questioned constantly for the words to perhaps come out in another order at some point. Hope this helps. +JMJ+
I know this isn’t the same but they used to grant an indulgence for visiting Mary’s tomb in Jerusalem. They stopped after the dogma of the Assumption. Indulgences are not infallible. .
ReplyDelete@anon1:11
DeleteYou are correct that Indulgences are not infallible, however, the Holy Ghost will prevent them being granted so as to promote error or evil. That's the dogma of Indefectibility.
Notice how well the Holy Ghost protects. It was never defined whether or not Mary died before her Assumption. The majority of theologians taught she did and before the first moment of bodily corruption, she was reunited body and soul and taken to Heaven. It is thereby possible that Mary had a (temporary) tomb.
The Indulgence was granted for the reverence due to the Mother of God's body which was a Living Tabernacle for Christ. It was discontinued to bring attention to her place as Queen of Heaven.
Nothing wrong about any of that. However, imagine giving an Indulgence for a false apparition spreading lies and comes from the devil. Big difference. It would be analogous to giving an Indulgence for visiting the tomb of Mohammed the false and evil "prophet" of Islam.
God Bless,
---Introibo
How did people understand the Church for the first 1500 years? Many could not even read. Many had no Church or priests even one generation back. Now everyone reads papal documents and are experts on who are popes and who are not popes. And anyone here trying to learn the truth are called vacancy pushers by a vacancy pusher. Nothing makes sense. Has anyone read the 1500 version of the Douay Rheims? It may as well be in another language. So someone please tell me where someone can find out how to be a Catholic in this Great Apostasy that the majority of the world does not know is even happening. The Baltimore Catechism didn't exist for the first 1500 years so I need something that did please Thanks.
ReplyDelete@anon12:08
DeleteHere is a good place to start:
https://introiboadaltaredei2.blogspot.com/2024/02/a-sedevacantist-primer.html
The position that the See of Peter is vacant since 1958 is supported by Catholic theological principles and the unprecedented change of Vatican II.
The only thing that was similar was the Great Western Schism when no one knew who, if any, of the three popes was true.
---Introibo
Many of this problems could be solved if one actually takes the time to learn the doctrine. Go to Archive.org, and akin websites, and find catholic books. This is more useful than fighting with people you don't trust in a comment box.
DeleteIf you need something pre 1500, then find yourself an archeological magazine or something. Indeed, the solution for ignorance is working for knowledge and right reasoning, not complaining that things are very hard.
Your words tell me that you don't truly believe the truly believe the catholic God is strong enough to preserve catholicism through the ages. Most of the Vatican 2 errors are fairly easy to understand - it's just that people are too full of themselves to recognize it and most don't care about religion anyway.
And yet you seem to think that if one denies the papacy of obvious apostates, then they should also deny the papacy of popes because they agreed with an apparition you don't believe in because some guy online wants to be seen as "smart" and "brave" and "willing to find the truth".
So, tell me: Is this what you were trying to say?
Thanks El poni! I should seek archeological magazines for Catholic truth? Not sure that is the best advice or why you draw so many conclusions about me. I am asking simple questions, not for deep theological explanations. Why am I seen as fighting with people I don't trust? I am.asking simple questions. Learning about the novus ordo scam took a while but I couldn't convince any priests I knew of these simple Vatican 2 errors. I only knew people who seemingly loved the Faith,, just not the True Faith.. They were alive during V2 too and highly intelligent. But I was told these are conspiracies when I told them the truth re novus ordo abomination. One who was pro life to the point of having freemasons getting him ejected from his parish because he wouldn't allow girl scouts to sell cookies on Church property because they support planned parenthood. This same pro life priest got vaxxed even though I warned him about poison and murdered baby cells and even Bp Strickland warned...but this theology PhD NO priest couldn't understand these simple concepts and errors you mention. And now, no surprise, he died not long after his vaxx. Times are tough yes but I am not complaining. I am seeking the Truth. I do not know who will see my questions and answer me.
DeleteThere are many who have said Fatima is false. I do not believe it anymore and I don't have to. Those I know in the Novus Ordo who are obsessed with it and it keeps them there. Most Fatima enthusiasts I know are also Medjugorje enthusiasts! I love Our Blessed Mother and she knows that. I don't need to invoke her under apparition titles.
The NO loves signs and wonders. He warned us.
Based on your reply, it looks like my assumptions were incorrect. Good to know.
DeleteAs for the archeology magazine, you said you needed something from before 1500's, and well, there you might find what you are looking for. If you don't think it's worth it, then why ask about something from before the 1500's?
I said the thing about the comments because you repeat your same questions over and over again , which doesn't seem to have helped you and is probably being unproductive, in comparison with my advice.
How did people understand the Church for the first 1500 years?
DeleteThey listened to their priests and bishops who were not only good teachers but wonder workers and this is how we have got to now. When one of them was questionable they appealed to a higher authority for correction. People who frequent this comment section generally agree who the last true pope was and don't question their authority nor apparitions that are approved by them.
You on the other hand, question everything and don't trust anybody including popes (except for one man it seems) and yet insist that you are "seeking the truth." I don't believe you are any more than you believe in Fatima. Like you would say I don't have to. You're a seeker of doubts.
I am confused El Poni. I mentioned I have a pdf version of the Douay from the 1500s. It doesn't help me because the language is unreadable to the English reader/speaker. I wonder how the translations came to be as I compared verses and there is nothing that is even comparable. If I can't read the Bible from 1500s, how can I read a magazine, if they existed, from that time period that randomly would have the truths of the Catholic faith in them? Perhaps I am completely missing your message. I ask over and over? Not sure about that either. Maybe other people are asking these same questions too? I certainly think to myself and ask God over and over these questions but not here. If you don't know how a Catholic in the first 1500 years knew and understood the Faith, then maybe don't reply? Most people could not even read and they had no education and no priest teaching them. We have St Leonard of Port Maurice telling us few are saved so they all must have perished? From lack of knowledge?? Only 8 were saved from the flood. I am looking for answers. People here claim to have some of the answers. God help us.
ReplyDeleteI don't have answers Poni, only questions and I have been studying nonstop for a very long time, most all every day. And there are few to ask so I ask here...hoping. God bless.
No, I meant an archeological magazine that would report on elder catholic writings found from that period. Send me that bible from 1500 and maybe I will get what you are saying.
DeleteFurthermore, I cannot help you if I don't understand what your question even is. Therefore I will keep asking questions until I get it.
DeleteDo you feel that the faith changed after the 1500's? That it's impossible for you to get the true religion? That true catholicism has become an esoteric religion after the 1500's? Do you want confirmation, from the church, against this doubts?
You said that you didn't doubt God was powerful enough to protect his religion, but every time you speak you seem to be saying precisely that. Can you write your specific questions down below?
@anon6:27
DeleteMy friend, if you seek the truth I have a suggestion. First, let me say this blog is a place for people to learn about the true faith and for those who have the true faith, to understand it better and to learn from each other in the comments.
I can help with some questions and difficulties. You have many such doubts and difficulties--more than I can help you with as I work full time and have a family.
Please call a Traditionalist priest. The SSPV and CMRI are both excellent. If you can make an appointment in person--that's the best. If not, have a phone appointment. Tell them you want to be a good Traditionalist but have many questions and concerns that only a priest can address. Then tell the priest and he can give you solid answers and guidance.
I'll be praying that God and His Blessed Mother clear up your confusion so you can see your way clearly.
God Bless,
---Introibo
Thanks Poni and Introibo! Appreciate the help and suggestions.
DeletePoni I can't send you the file...it is 1582 version and is huge. I don't think I can email it either. In any case it was written before J and other letters part of alphabet and other symbols that don't look like letters...in any case I just heard a recording where the Challoner version that many have is protestantized and he removed Church father annotations. I took a screen shot and copied text and it didn't even copy because it doesn't understand the letters/symbols either. I was going to copy the first section of St John's gospel but the first 6 chapters are missing.
So this copy was from Ch 7:
CRA. VII.
P DYL 1 Mmb
37
ACCORDING TO & LORH
nor Gode: And vvhere lam, you can notcome.
166
t And in the laft, the great day of the fefbuitic Issys foode, and cried, laying, It any man thirft, let him come to 38 me,and drinke. He that beleeuech in me, as the fcripture 39 faith, or of his belly feel forvrient of living.
40
(And this he faid of the Spitic that they thould receive vvhich beleeued, in him. for as yet the Spirit was not given:becauſe I asvs fal vvas not yet glorified.)
† Of that multitude therfore, when they had heard thefe 41 vorder of his, fome faid, This is the Propher in decde. forhers
564
面
faid, This is CHRIST. But certaine fald, Vvhy, dorh 42 CHRIST come from Galilee Dath nor the fcripture lay, that of the feede of Dauid, and from Bethlehem the tovvoc 43 vybere Dauid vvas, CHRIST doth come t Therfore there arole diffenfion in the multitude for him. And certaine of them vyould haue apprcheded him: burno mas laid handes S vpon him. The ministers therfore came to the cheeſe priests and the Pharifees. And they faid to them. Vyhy have 46 you norbrought him? t The minilers anfvvered, Neuer 47 did there man to fpeake, as this man. The Pharifees ther- 48 fore anfvvered them, Vvhy, are you allo feduced; † Hath 49 any of the Princes beleeued in him, or of the Pharifees? t but so this multitude that knovvech nor the lavy, are accurfed. 1 Ni-
codemus faid to them, he that came to him by night, vvho Sr vvas one of them, t Doth our lavy judge a man, voles it firſt 52 heare him, and knovv vvhat he doeth They anfvvered,
and faid to him, Vvhy,arc chou alfo a Galilean Search and fee $3 that from Galilee a Prophet rifeth aor. And euery man re-
In any case, I can't read this at all. It was sent to me as a backup to have the True Bible when things get worse but what good is it to me when I can't read it. Yes, obviously God can preserve anything He wants but He can also take it away from us. If even the Elect can be fooled...
Introibo I have spoken to many priests over the last few years. Sspv told me cmri not good or valid. I called anyway cmri too. They didn't help with all these questions either. They said things like...just pray. And I will meet you in heaven! I have a few priests who mentor me by email and one who really adheres to the Thesis. I don't buy that Thesis so I end up more confused after discussing these matters with all the various priests. One of the.cmri priests made things worse for me and my siblings, and made him appear somewhat crazy. And my siblings think I am too with my church conspiracy theories, re the false popes and novus ordo etc.
Does anyone know a gregorian chant rosary CD without the Fatima prayer that be be purchased?
Why don't you try to learn 1500's English? You see, that would solve your problem of not being able to read the bible you want to read.
DeleteFor starters, it looks like some of the "f" are being used in the place of the "s", and "vv" seems to be used in placed of "w". It might not be easy but if you are so scared, this is the way. There are some channels in YouTube discussing the history of the English language. They might offer some sources and advice in the videos / descriptions.
A comparison with a Bible from a bit later (maybe 1700's?) could give you an idea as to what the book is saying.
You CAN understand the issues if you begin with the theological basics. But first you need to get rid of your anxiety, because it doesn't allow you to see clearly.
anon June 23 at 6:27,
DeleteThere's really no need for you or any of us to try to decipher a Holy Bible translation from the 1500s. You can trust any Bible translation that has been approved by the Church (that means in practice anything pre-Vatican 2) because She is infallible in doing so.
I like the translation by Fr. Ronald Knox (the Knox Bible). He made St. Paul speak modern English (not Modernist!) as if the Apostle of the Gentiles were speaking to us today.
Here's the Douay-Rheimes and the Knox versions side by side:
https://catholicbible.online/side_by_side/NT
I hope this helps a bit and God Bless You,
Joanna
Introibo, you quote theologians that state that you can't reject the apparitions without sin, yet they disagree with Pope Benedict XIV who stated:
ReplyDeleteit is possible to refuse to accept such [approved] revelations and to turn from them, as long as one does so with proper modesty, for good reasons, and without the intention of setting himself up as a superior. [De Serv. Dei Beatif.]
So who am I to believe, you and the theologians or the pope?
@anon9:07
DeleteThat’s a false dichotomy. Almost all problems arise when people don’t understand how the Magisterium works.
Approved theologians are united to the bishops and are an organ of the Magisterium.
The highest level of theologians are called “authors” as they have authored volumes on theology that have passed the standards for orthodoxy and are used in seminaries to train future priests.
If an author were to contradict papal teaching, he would be censored and his works would never be used in the seminary.
Such authors include Van Noort and Slater whom I cited above. They do not (indeed, could not) contradict Pope Benedict without censure.
Look at what Pope Benedict decreed. There are CONDITIONS to reject an approved private revelation. One is that you do not set yourself up as a superior.
Beginning in the 19th century, the papacy was under attack on all sides more than any other time in history. The great deference given by Catholics to the papacy had eroded tremendously.
Hence, many great theologians (authors) taught that approved private revelations should be received by Catholics with due deference to the papacy, especially in light of Church doctrine regarding the papacy promulgated by the Vatican Council in 1870.
Viewed in that light, to reject outright an approved private revelation would carry some sin (it can never be heresy).
Pope Pius XII himself approved of Fatima. To reject Fatima is to hold the papacy in contempt.
So, you shouldn’t believe **ME**
You should believe the approved theologians AND in doing so, you never run afoul of the popes.
Those who reject the authority of the approved theologians include Protestants, Modernists, and Feeneyites/Dimondites.
That’s no company a Traditionalist Catholic would ever want to be in!
God Bless,
—-Introibo
Are you saying Pope Benedict XIV no longer holds?
ReplyDelete@anon6:12
DeleteI'm not saying anything. The theologians since the Vatican Council of 1870, in light of the papal doctrine promulgated, have taught a nuance. In the words of theologian Van Noort :
"...Granting that the divine origin of the revelation can be established with certainty, the question arises whether such revelations not only can be believed but ought to be believed. Briefly we think the answer is this: such a revelation ought to be believed both by the one who receives it and by those for whom it is destined: the rest of the faithful cannot outrightly deny it without some sort of sin."
(See Dogmatic Theology, [1961], 3:215)
Fatima has been established as worthy of belief by Pope Pius XII. Hence, you cannot outrightly deny it without some sin.
---Introibo
So you and the theologians are saying Pope Benedict's teaching' is no longer true because he said we are not bound.
Delete@anon7:21
DeleteI'm not saying anything. Read what the approved theologians wrote above. Pope Benedict said we are not bound if certain criteria were met. The criteria can no longer be met.
---Introibo
When the Church approved it in Pope Benedict's day it wasn't certain, but now it is? Im not following you. How can a private revelation be certain now, not when Pope Benedict was pope? That doesn't make sense.
Delete@anon10:17
DeleteAgain read what the theologians wrote: Pope Benedict said we are not bound if CERTAIN (i.e., particular enumerated) criteria were met. Those particular criteria can no longer be met.
---Introibo
Sorry but I don't see what you're talking about. If the Church approved it in the 1700s and you didn't have to believe then but now when the Church approves you do have to believe. What specific criteria if the Church already approved?
Delete@anon1:27
DeleteOk, I'm trying to make this as simple as possible:
Your own citation to Pope Benedict enumerates things in order to withhold belief from an approved apparition:
1. proper modesty
2. good reasons
3. not setting yourself as superior
Back in the days of Pope Benedict XIV the full doctrine on the papacy was not yet promulgated. That would be done by the Vatican Council of 1870.
The papacy was under incredible attack from all sides in the 19th century.
Hence, given the papal monarchy and the attacks on the papacy, Catholics cannot with modesty and setting oneself up as superior reject an approved apparition
---Introibo
Your explanation still doesn't make sense. Theologians after 1870 still use Pope Benedict XIV teaching to show that we don't have to accept approved apparitions. What you cite are opinions from theologians that are not actual church teaching. No offense, but I think you fumbled on this one big time! One more thing, you have stated many times that an approved apparition cant be demonic, but can you cite a church teaching on it rather than opinions from theologians? I looked everywhere and couldn't find anything except that it may be possible for it to be demonic as long as there are no errors against faith and morals in the messages. I don't want your explanation why it cant be demonic but an actual Church or papal teaching. Thank you for your hard work on this.
Delete@anon7:55
DeleteOk some clarifications are necessary. Commenters on this post are intoning "other theologians" who teach differently.
WHO, exactly, are they and what, exactly, did they teach? There's not a single citation here. Are they Doctors of the Church? Authors? Minor theologians? It is important.
When you ask for "an actual Church or papal teaching" that approved apparitions can't be demonic. You ignore the fact that theologians are an organ of the Magisterium. In addition, I can cite the DOGMA of INDEFECTIBILITY. The Church cannot give evil or error to Her children. Ergo, approved apparitions cannot be demonic or your devotion would be to something evil.
Think: are we really free to disregard approved private revelations in light of what the Church has gotten through them?
A partial list:
The Rosary (St Dominic)
The Scapular (St. Simon)
The modern devotion to the Most Sacred Heart of Jesus (St. Margaret Mary)
The Miraculous Medal (St. Catherine)
Don't be surprised if someone finds a picture associated with Lourdes and declares it "demonic" or that it shouldn't be believed based on their private judgement. What then? Dispose of your Miraculous Medals or trust Holy Mother Church especially when She cannot defend Herself in a time of sedevacante?
God Bless,
---Introibo
Tanquerey was one of those theologians but you misrepresented him. Theologians may be organs but their teachings don't necessarily reflect church teaching. I understand that you think approved apparitions cant be demonic but I want a church or papal teaching that says so. Theologians don't all agree any many things. Indefectibility may not be involved but I know that you think it does. Give me that church teaching please.
Delete@anon9:41
DeleteI misrepresented no one. As I wrote to you in another comment: "He [Tanqueray] did teach that there is no general obligation for the faithful to believe a private revelation as you cite. He also taught that the assent of Catholic faith should not be given them, but only human faith. On this last point all theologians are unanimous. The question is... "Is there ever an obligation to believe a private revelation?"
On this point, Tanqueray teaches:
"Private revelations should be believed by those to whom they occur, or by those for whom they take place, provided they are certainly established; they can be believed by those to whom they are directed, provided they are set forth by satisfactory arguments." (See "A Manual of Dogmatic Theology [1959], 1:207).
Tanqueray here answers the question YES they SHOULD BE believed (not MUST be and not CAN be). SHOULD indicates something that is right to do (e.g., you SHOULD be kind). Hence, there is some obligation is someone SHOULD do something."
Theologians always reflect Church teaching or they wouldn't be approved. When a question is open to debate, they may not be right, but they teach no heresy. When all theologians teach unanimously about something at any given point in time, it is dogmatic as per the Universal and Ordinary Magisterium.
If you're looking for a decree that specifically states what your looking for you won't find one, but that's not the only way the Church teaches us. For example, canonizations are to be considered infallible by virtue of the UOM. not a papal decree.
Canonizations must be infallible as a secondary object of infallibility, otherwise the Church could promote a damned soul for veneration. The Church is Indefectible and cannot give error or evil to Her children.
Likewise, the pope cannot give a demonic manifestation (evil by definition and wanting to cause damnation of souls) as an object "worthy of belief" and devotion.
---Introibo
Jean de Launoy: A 17th-century French historian and theologian who wrote treatises arguing extensively that popes could err in the canonization of saints.
DeleteDaniel Papebroch: A prominent 17th-century Jesuit Bollandist whose historical research into the lives of the saints led him to suggest that some canonizations could be mistaken.
Pope Benedict XIV taught that it was only an opinion that canonizations were infallible. "Most theologians answer in the affirmative", which implies that not all answer in the affirmative.
He wrote: St. Thomas says: "Since the honour we pay the saints is in a certain sense a profession of faith, i. e., a belief in the glory of the Saints [quâ sanctorum gloriam credimus] we must piously believe that in this matter also the judgment of the Church is not liable to error." These words of St. Thomas, as is evident from the authorities just cited, all favouring a positive infallibility, have been interpreted by his school in favour of papal infallibility in the matter of canonization, and this interpretation is supported by several other passages in the same Quodlibet. This infallibility, however according to the holy doctor, is only a point of pious belief. Theologians generally agree as to the fact of papal infallibility in this matter of canonization, but disagree as to the quality of certitude due to a papal decree in such matter. In the opinion of some it is of faith (Arriaga, De fide, disp. 9, p. 5, no 27); others hold that to refuse assent to such a judgment of the Holy See would be both impious and rash, as Suarez (De fide, disp. 5 p. 8, no 8); many more (and this is the general view) hold such a pronouncement to be theologically certain, not being of Divine Faith as its purport has not been immediately revealed, nor of ecclesiastical Faith as having thus far not been defined by the Church.
He goes on to teach: "Canonists and theologians generally deny the infallible character of decrees of beatification, whether formal or equivalent, since it is always a permission, not a command; while it leads to canonization, it is not the last step."
Since beatification is not infallible, it could mean that we could call a damned individual "blessed." Right?
Timothy Fitzpatrick.
DeleteHow are you, Timmy? I thought you might be a person sincerely seeking the truth. Then I thought you might be a Dimondite since you "argue" like them, yet you never gave the obligatory citation to something written by Fred and Bobby Dimwit.
It turns out you're a member of the Vatican II sect and have a website ironically named "The Fitzpatrick Informer." (It's ironic because in order to inform others you can't be clueless). Your website's stated purpose is to expose the "Judeo-Masonic- Bolshevist conspiracy." It is ironic (once more) that you can uncover conspiracies yet can't see the reality that Bob Prevost cannot be pope---no conspiracy necessary.
The problem with you is the same as other Apparitionist-minimizers, Apparitionists, Feeneyites/Dimondites, and Recognizer &Resisters: (1) You don't understand the Magisterium and how it works in general, and (2) you don't understand the papacy in particular.
You try to "one up me" in these comments to show how "smart" you are, but all you've done is the opposite. You've shown yourself to my readers as bereft of understanding.
You cite to two theologians in an attempt to show that all theologians don't consider canonizations as infallible. I frequently write "approved theologians" for in order to be an organ of the Magisterium, they must be united to it. The Church (not the V2 sect) has always done a good job of censuring heretical theologians. They must never be followed. You provided two names of theologians that sound impressive.
Let's look at each one:
"Jean de Launoy: A 17th-century French historian and theologian who wrote treatises arguing extensively that popes could err in the canonization of saints"
Was he an approved theologian? de Launoy was:
* a Jansenist and Gallican heretic
* Most of his theological writings were placed on the Index of Forbidden Books for teaching errors and heresy
* In 1704, Pope Clement XI posthumously condemned one of his theological works for its erroneous condemnation of St. Augustine's doctrine of grace.
* In 1656 he was excluded from the Sorbonne's theology faculty for refusing to sign a theological censure against his heretical friend
Next up:
"Daniel Papebroch: A prominent 17th-century Jesuit Bollandist whose historical research into the lives of the saints led him to suggest that some canonizations could be mistaken."
Was he an approved theologian? Papebroch:
* was censured for heresy by the Spanish Inquisition. Although the appeal to Rome was resolved in his favor, his works were held suspect by many bishops and his volumes removed from their seminaries
* incorrectly branded almost all early Merovian-era documents as spurious. The Benedictine scholar Jean Mabillion proved that many ancient monastic charters Papebroch considered fraudulent were entirely authentic thereby refuting Papebroch's work
If these are the theologians you cite for your case, you're WORSE than clueless. I immediately tough of Scripture when I read your comment:
"For professing themselves to be wise, they became fools." (Romans 1:22)
---Introibo
So we must accept approved private Revelation?
ReplyDelete@anon6:20
DeleteI think we should, and so does the Church. It is not heresy, nor mortal sin, but sin as you hold the judgement of the Church in contempt. How could you e.g., deny the approved revelations of St. Margaret Mary seeing how it is so closely bound to the Sacred Heart?
---Introibo
There is, it would seem, a wave of almost nihilistic spiritual pessimism sweeping a good number of souls today. It is a last-ditch effort of the devil, et al, to cause more division as if there weren't enough already. As we are at the seventh antipope since 1958 and his time is to be short (see Apoc. 17:9-11) this appears to trigger some kind of reaction from people who either wish to deny it or have something incomplete or wrong in what they believe to be true. But at any rate, what I just said is inseparable from what Our Lady of Fatima meant by Her message and the secret. Hence the 'almost nihilistic wave' I mentioned, coming from somewhere...
ReplyDeleteSeeing that people are questioning the popes, I came across this interesting video between Kokx and Chojnowski https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ofmHM9Puy04
ReplyDeleteChojnowski (Sr. Lucy truth) says Pius XII comes from a line of liberal Catholics in Italy trying to fight the Communists which created a problem because the door for the orthodox Catholics (the right) was by his time closed shut.
In their discussion they modestly talk about which popes from the French Enlightenment up until Pius XII were the best and worst popes from their opinion. Chojnowski praises Pope Gregory XVI as a counter revolutionary and anti-Modernist pope but says the only criticism of him that he has is that he asked the Rothchilds to help bail out the Church on a particular occasion. He also mentions how Pius XII's grandfather at this time was a banker for those very Rothchilds. Of course he's not suggesting that the Church is in league with Globalists or that Gregory XVI is a questionable pope but that on one particular occasion he made a bad decision and that now hindsight is 20/20.
He also says that Pope Pius XI's pontificate was catastrophic because he turned his back on the good Catholic French and Mexicans. Kokx mentions Pope Benedict XV as a softener towards the Modernists when he suppressed the Sodalitium Pianum which was put in by Pope St. Pius X to root out Modernists.
The reason I bring this up is because of two reasons. 1.) How do we obey a true pope when he makes very bad decisions in the Church in spite of our own good? 2.) How do we determine when a pope is not a pope without any guidance other than ourselves and what if we are wrong and somebody such as John XXIII really was true pope for example?
I've noticed a lot of criticism of the popes since the past article on the Role of Women and was just wanting some clarification because it does seem like Pope Pius XII was a bridge to the Vatican II church. It's also very foreign to me to be over critical of the hierarchy because it comes off as prideful. How do we teach our children about the papacy if we criticize all the time? Doesn't that just leave them with a bad example?
-Mark B.
Mark,
DeleteYou ask:
1.) How do we obey a true pope when he makes very bad decisions in the Church in spite of our own good?
Answer: You can be vocal about your disapproval while carefully distinguishing between his role as Supreme Teacher (protected by the Holy Ghost) and roles where decisions are not so protected such as diplomacy and choosing cardinals.
2.) How do we determine when a pope is not a pope without any guidance other than ourselves and what if we are wrong and somebody such as John XXIII really was true pope for example?
Answer: When there are stark contradictions between past and current teachings on defined matters of faith and morals, it is evidence of a non-papacy.
Two posts to help:
https://introiboadaltaredei2.blogspot.com/2024/02/a-sedevacantist-primer.html
and as to Roncalli:
https://introiboadaltaredei2.blogspot.com/2019/05/the-case-against-roncalli.html
You write: "I've noticed a lot of criticism of the popes since the past article on the Role of Women and was just wanting some clarification because it does seem like Pope Pius XII was a bridge to the Vatican II church."
Reply: NOT TRUE!! Please see my post:
https://introiboadaltaredei2.blogspot.com/2018/07/in-defense-of-pope-pius-xii.html
God Bless,
---Introibo
The answer to no.1 is that we don't know whether or not he is making bad decisions at a particular time. He has his own advisors and we are not to judge him as pope or not on the strength of his governing decisions. Perhaps what was decided at a particular time is the best apparent option at the time - hindsight here is not useful.
DeleteThe answer to no.2 is to leave everything else aside, including politics, and compare the suspect pope with heresy - it must inevitably come out - without regard to non-doctrinal decisions. One pope disbanded the Jesuits for example - but that was politics.
Roncalli was not obvious at first but when he refused to reveal the 3rd part of the secret in 1960 - which was not a request - that was an indication (he also denied the unity of the Church but that was more subtle than 1960); I know people now are more likely to doubt Fatima but Pius XII did not heed Our Lady's request to command all the bishops of the Catholic world to consecrate Russia together with himself -- but that was a request, you see, and not an order, unlike 1960.
So if Fatima is false because the consecration (which was w/o the bishops, remember) had no effect then so is Pius XII who approved Fatima; but since he didn't actually fulfill the request as requested does that mean he was true after all ? But then, if Fatima is false then Roncalli must be true because he refused to reveal the secret (not a request but a command); but if they are both false then where does that leave Pius XII, who approved Fatima but did not fulfill it ? They both cannot be true and not true at the same time.
Of course, one can say, nihilistically, that they are all false (Pius XI, XII, Fatima and Roncalli) but then why did Roncalli refuse to reveal the secret in 1960 ? He could have said "This will not happen now" because of Pius XII's consecration, but that is hardly possible because many people knew the bishops had to be involved.
Bottom line is he was not afraid to convoke a council with full intent to remake the Church but afraid to reveal the secret but knew that simply refusing to reveal it might be equivalent to Pius XII's refusal to include the bishops (it is not, as one was a request and the other was a command) and this was done by a communiqué (as I recall) or low key press release from the Vatican; keeping it quiet as it were.
In this case hindsight is useful as we know exactly where Roncalli was going with his actions, which is not where Pius XII was going with his.
There's more going on than what appears on the surface - for instance, when Pius XII did not include the bishops, he was not being disobedient (it was a request not a command) but actually guided by the Holy Spirit - and you have to think Our Lady knew that might happen. Which is why 1960 was not a request.
Anyway the rest is in Apocalypse (where else?) but instead of going into all that how about this: there are contingencies. For instance, when the woman of ch.12 (the Church) fled to a place prepared by God (Apoc.12:6). But less obvious is "a door open, which no man can shut" to those with a little strength (Apoc.3:8).
Thank you Introibo. Please understand that I am not trying to insinuate that I reject pope Pius XII but that all the criticism I've heard leads me to think that.
Delete-Mark B.
So as the Supreme Teacher protected by the Holy Ghost does Pope Pius XII get a pass for allowing belief in theistic evolution whereas Pope St. Pius X held firm that such a belief was considered modernist? There are priests in the SSPX who teach that Adam and Eve came from animal species. According to Pius XII this is allowed without being sinful. According to St. Pius X this is considered modernist and dangerous. I personally believe in Pope Pius X because I think it's appalling to consider such a belief (theistic evolution) to be held by Catholics. According to you I would be wrong for going against Pius XII. Am I missing something here, because I will gladly retract accusing one pope of contradicting a serious teaching from another pope (if that is what he is)?
Delete@anon11:55
DeleteI discuss this topic in detail here:
https://introiboadaltaredei2.blogspot.com/2024/01/human-origin.html
God Bless,
---Introibo
So it's not harmful to believe that Adam came from apes. It's just an open question. I believe Adam came from the dust. Not a pre existing living matter which is another way of saying apes.
Delete@anon6:48
DeleteYes, it's an open question. "Apes" have nothing to do with evolution or how the body of Adam could have been formed.
God Bless,
---Introibo
1909 Pontifical Biblical Commission
DeleteIII: In particular may the literal historical sense be called in doubt in the case of facts narrated in the same chapters which touch the foundations of the Christian religion: as are, among others, the creation of all things by God in the beginning of time; the special creation of man; the formation of the first woman from the first man; the unity of the human race; the original felicity of our first parents in the state of justice, integrity, and immortality; the command given by God to man to test his obedience; the transgression of the divine command at the instigation of the devil under the form of a serpent; the degradation of our first parents from that primeval state of innocence; and the promise of a future Redeemer?
Answer: In the negative.
Notice how it says "the special creation of man; the formation of the first woman from the first man"
If it's open question whether the special creation of man and the formation of the first woman wasn't from dust then how is that not a problem when it just said in the negative? If you want to say that pre-existing living matter is in the dust like bacteria, fungi, or something like that then I don't have as much of a problem, but most people on the scientific side understand it to be animal such as an ape. Complete garbage. I do not teach my children that when God created Adam and Eve that He may have created them from a pre existing living matter which could have been from an animal. I tell them dust from the ground because that's a fact.
@anon6:58
DeleteYou don't understand the science. Yet you are free to believe that. I repeat here theologian Tanquerey (d.1932):
It is de fide that our first parents in regard to body and in regard to soul were created by God: it is certain that their souls were created immediately by God; the opinion, once common, which asserts that even man’s body was formed immediately by God has now fallen into controversy…As long as the spiritual origin of the human soul is correctly preserved, the differences of body between man and ape do not oppose the origin of the human body from animality…
The reasons for and against it[development of the body of Adam], we shall explain.
The obvious meaning of the narrative in Genesis is that Adam's body was formed from the slime of the Earth, that is, from inorganic matter, but not from the body of some brute...
On the contrary, if the nature of the narrative is considered to be popular historic, employing metaphors then in use among the Semites, slime can thus be metaphorically understood to signify only the material or or physico-chemical elements from which Man's body is constituted, whether they still be inanimate and inorganic, or whether they be already ordered and living in an animal organism. In other words, the sacred author intended only to teach this: Man has been created by God of matter and of spirit--without affirming anything concerning the form or the manner of being of this matter.
This interpretation seems to be entirely in conformity with the principles set forth by Leo XIII in the Encyclical Providentissimus, and repeated by Pius XII in the Encyclical Divino Afflante Spiritu, namely: the sacred authors do not give a properly or peculiarly scientific teaching, but "they describe and treat these very things either according to a certain manner of translation, or as the common speech reported them in those times."
The nearly unanimous interpretation of the Fathers and of the ancient Theologians, excepting Origen, Cajetan, and a few others, favors the opinion of the immediate production of the human body.
On the contrary, we must understand that the Fathers and ancient Theologians only repeat the words of Sacred Scripture. A dispute had not arisen regarding the manner of forming the human body; this dispute they had no intentions in any way of settling. Wherefore it is apparent that they do not propose as a doctrine of faith the immediate formation of the body by God from the slime of the Earth in opposition to the mediate formation. (See A Manual of Dogmatic Theology, [1959] English edition, 1:394-398)
God Bless,
---Introibo
You sound like Dr. Fauci when he told everybody they didn't know the science with vaccines. This isn't about science. It's about how we are to believe in Genesis. Man came from dust PERIOD and the 1909 Biblical Commission says we are not allowed to question the literal historical sense of the first 3 chapters of Genesis. Leaving it open for discussion is a contradiction.
Delete@anon9:46
DeleteI'm not at all like Fraud-chi. You miss what was actually taught. The 1909 Biblical Commission said we are not to question the literal historical sense---yet the SAME COMMISSION in the SAME DECREE allows the word "yom" to be a long amount of time, not six literal days. How do you square Pope St. Pius X "contradicting himself?
Once more, please see my post:
https://introiboadaltaredei2.blogspot.com/2024/01/human-origin.html
---Introibo
If I were to say "I will see you later" the word later could mean in a few minutes, a few hours, tomorrow, or 6 months from now. In a separate question (#8) Pope St. Pius X affirmed why that particular word Yom (Day) cannot necessarily be taken literally because it cannot be used interchangeably because it has multiple meanings.
DeleteQuestion 3 is clear though. We are not to question how God formed Adam, other than that he came from the dust as the Scriptures say.
Are you telling me that you believe Adam was not formed by the dust and that he came from a pre-existent living matter? What does that pre-existent living matter mean to you? Be specific.
@anon5:01
DeleteLater can also mean billions of years, as was by Pope Pius XII praising the Big Bang Theory.
As to Adam: In the Bible, Genesis 2:7 describes how God created Adam. It says God made Adam from the dust of the ground. What stands out here is the word “formed.”
In this verse, the word “formed” comes from a Hebrew word “yasar,” which means to shape or make. And in Genesis 2:19, thesame word is used to say how God made all the animals from the ground, too. So, from these verses, we can gather that both humans and animals were made by God from the same stuff. Which makes sense—the fossil record seems to reveal shared DNA similarities as well as shared features.
However, here’s where human uniqueness comes in.
Even though humans and animals were made from the same material, only Adam got the special treatment of having the breath of life breathed into him by God.
We read in Genesis 1:26–27 and 9:6, that only humans were made in the image of God. We have special and unique qualities that reflect God’s image.
So, it seems like the Bible indeed supports and helps explain what we find in science.
For the record, evolutionary biologists do not claim humans evolved directly from monkeys, chimpanzees, or any other modern apes we see today.
If this is confusing to you, it’s probably because popular media has oversimplified what evolutionists believe. Hominids are developing humans--not "apes" of any kind
---Introibo
You say "Hominids are developing humans--not "apes" of any kind"
DeleteA Hominid is defined as any member of the biological family Hominidae, commonly known as the great apes. This group includes modern humans, extinct human ancestors, and all living species of great apes—namely chimpanzees, bonobos, gorillas, and orangutans.
It doesn't matter whether God created animals and humans from the same stuff. What matters is understanding that God did NOT allow Adam to come from a beast, before He breath forth his soul into him. Therefore Adam did not come from a developing hominid which is defined as a species of great apes. He came from dust only. It's not oversimplified any more than saying Jesus died on the cross. He didn't fall asleep on the cross. He didn't fake his death. He didn't transport to another dimension. He simply died, descended into Hell and on the third day rose again from the dead. Just like Adam was formed from the dust, then God breath forth his soul into him, Eve came from the rib, and they enjoyed immortality until they committed the first sin.
This whole debate shouldn't even be a debate but pope Pius XII pandered to the unhappy mad scientists who don't want to accept the Scriptures as they are. It's sad in my opinion.
Your last comment is wrong. Hominids includes apes. Evolutionists hold tha Adam's body was once an ape and God gave the ape a soul which then made him human or that Adam was at conception made man with biological ape parents that provided the way. Either way, Adam's body came via apes. Do you personally believe this?
Delete@anon11:31
DeleteIn theology "hominid" has been used differently and Evolutionary biologists claim that humans are part of an evolutionary lineage that **includes** monkeys. Meaning, monkeys did not eventually become humans, but human beings are a part of a family tree that includes monkeys, chimpanzees, gorillas and orangutans.
Adam did not come from a brute beast, but his body was formed specially by God. The Church teaches no details.
---Introibo
@anon7:15
DeleteThe Church never taught that Adam comes from dust only.
Theologian Sagues:
But whether with regard to his [Adam] body he is in some way from a brute (but not without the special intervention of God) is an open question, which has not yet been clearly and certainly explained by the investigations of natural science, and which will have to be solved with certainty perhaps in the future with the help of faith and guided by revelation. (See Sacrae Theologiae Summa IIB, [1955], pg.236)
Theologian Ott says similarly:
The soul of the first man was created immediately by God out of nothing. As regards the body, its immediate formation from inorganic stuff by God cannot be maintained with certainty. Fundamentally, the possibility exists that God breathed the spiritual soul into an organic stuff, that is, into an originally animal body…
---Introibo
Actually the Scriptures say he came from the dust/slime of the earth in Gen 2:7 and the Church decided in the 1909 Biblical Commission that we are not to call this into doubt as stated from above. Theologians decided to change their minds and Pope Pius XII pandered to them and now we don't know for sure. We have Catholics debating how Adam was formed all because of a permission which contradicts Pope St. Pius X. Utterly ridiculous.
Delete@anon5:43
DeleteActually, you have no clue about the things on which you write. You obviously did not/will not read my post that explains all this. "Theologians decided to change their minds"? No, they would have been censured had they taught against Pope St. Pius X. Pope Pius XII, protected by the Holy Ghost "pandered" to runaway theologians? No.
The theologians had been discussing the possibility of evolution of Adam's body since the late 1800's
Here is theologian Hunter writing in the Year 1895:
"Others think it possible that close study of the visible world, which we have called a divinely composed commentary upon the Written Word may possibly give good ground for believing that the apparent meaning of the Mosaic narrative is not the true meaning, and that the body of the first Man was prepared by the operation of natural causes, without any extraordinary action of God. These therefore suspend their judgement, and await further light upon the subject, whether it come to them by a pronouncement of the Church, or by the progress of natural science. (See Outlines of Dogmatic Theology, [1895], pg. 420).
The only thing utterly ridiculous are your assertions.
---Introibo
When you quoted Tanquerey in his manual, he states: This interpretation seems to be entirely in conformity with the principles set forth by Leo XIII in the Encyclical Providentissimus, and repeated by Pius XII in the Encyclical Divino Afflante Spiritu, namely....
DeleteTanquerey died in 1932, so he couldn't write about Pius XII and his 1943 encyclical.
Therefore, you can't use this citation as if Tanquerey wrote it. He obviously didn't.
@anon8:39
DeleteLOL!! Of course not! Anyone who knows about the approved theologians understands that authors (like Tanqueray) constantly have their works revised by the Holy See to keep them relevant for seminarians. While the text is 99% his, the posthumous revision of 1959 was updated to include references to Pope Pius XII.
Notice Tanqueray himself cited to Leo XIII --and those principles were REPEATED by Pope Pius XII. It changes nothing only makes the points in certain areas stronger.
Fr. DePauw, my spiritual father and an approved canonist, explained this to me in detail years ago.
---Introibo
Funny that you should quote Hunter in 1895. St. Pius X settled it in 1909.
DeleteThe Council of Cologne in 1860 condemned evolutionary theories regarding Adam's creation when the bishops said "Our first parents were formed immediately by God. Therefore we declare that the opinion of those who do not fear to assert that this human being, man as regards to his body, emerged finally from the spontaneous continuous change of imperfect nature to the more perfect, is clearly opposed to Sacred Scripture and to the Faith.”
@anon9:09
DeleteWhat’s really funny (actually sad) is how obtuse you are. Seriously. The idea of evolution of the body was NOT settled by PBC as you think. If so, Tanquerry writing in the 1920s and 1930s would have been censured, as would Ott, Sagues, etc.
You obviously didn’t read or don’t understand the post I wrote.
You are bereft of knowledge about how the Magisterium teaches .
—-Introibo
You write: “Lucia and Jacinta were no doubt scared by the questioning, and even probably misunderstood by the priest.”
ReplyDeleteWhy do you think that? Why would they be scared and why would the priest misunderstand them? When I read the exchange quoted on Speray’s website the issue was pretty simple and clear.
My conscience keeps telling me not to provoke your ire by questioning your character. But I am afraid that I think I sympathize with the above commenter who said you are not being honest about the facts. I will say instead that I do not think you are being objective.
That said, I don’t blame your instinct to defend the integrity of the Church and in particular the popes that backed this apparition. The more I think about it, the more crucial this issue of the length of her dress is, over a hundreds later.
I agree with you: the Holy Ghost doesn’t nod. But the record seems clear: this apparition was dressed immodestly. I don’t know. I’m flummoxed. And I’m praying about it…
The Pilgrim statue of Our Lady of Fatima, "made according to Sister Lucia’s instructions, was offered by the Bishop of Leiria and solemnly crowned by the Archbishop of Evora, on the 13th of May 1947" (look it up). No immodesty there. No one thought to use the misunderstanding testimony to gainsay her because that was all it was. Various prelates had decades to bring it up. The modernist Fr. Dhanis and the rationalist Gerard de Sede didn't mention it, though they mentioned many other things long refuted (see 'The Whole Truth About Fatima' Vol.1, the critical study section at the end for the English translation. About 1/5 of the book is footnotes so it's well documented).
Delete@anon9:44
DeleteI also wrote: "The manifest weight of all the evidence explains why the Bishop approved the apparition as authentic upon the final report in 1930."
For some reason you think Mr. Speray is the expert to be believed over the diligence of Holy Mother Church.
Do you really think you know what really went on reading some notes? You were not at the interviews and have no Magisterial authority. You are trying to discern something over 100 years ago. Fr. Formagio was against the apparition at first (as he should be inclined to do) then became a believer.
As to particulars: Several reports from many sources relate that the small children were tired and to be questioned by an authority figure for a long time is intimidating for most adults--I can only imagine children.
The priest could easily misunderstand children who are upset; as a former teacher, I've seen first hand how stories get twisted by scared students.
Holy Mother Church has only approved a handful of apparitions. If Our Lady of Fatima was so easily debunked due to clothing, it never would have papal approval.
Fr. DePauw was a big supporter of Fatima, and his brother, Fr. Adhemar (OFM) was privy to much information from Cardinal Ottaviani. Yet we should believe Mary was immodestly dressed being so far away from 1917 and all the investigations. That makes zero sense.
---Introibo
Forget the credibility of Steven Speray or whatever “notes” you want to belittle. I’m talking about the Church’s own testimony. LIKE I SAID: the record is clear: she was dressed immodestly. The reason we are going over this over a hundred years later is because A) YOU brought it up. And B) because no one else apparently did. I’ve pretty much read everything about Fatima that I’ve come across over the last ten years and Speray’s case was the first time I had heard about the dress. He deserves credit for being OBJECTIVE about it. I tried to convey that I do not mean to set myself up as an authority on this but you insist on reminding me nevertheless that I’m not the magesterium. OK fine. But let me remind you of this: if possible, EVEN THE ELECT.
DeleteEither they didn't know or have all the facts or the they overlooked them. The dress wasn't necessarily immodest but it was strange for our lady. The description is on record at Fatima as part of the official description by the children. Same goes with the interviews about ww1 ending on Oct 13. 1917. The priest asked them over and over again.."Are you sur" and Lucia was definitely sure. No, none of this makes sense and Speray was bringing this out and asking the questions.
Delete@anon4:23
DeleteYou know this...how? There were multiple interviews. Lucia was definitely sure..because you were there and know this to be true. No other Church official asked "how can this be?"
Only you.
As cairsahr__stjoseph wrote above:
"The Pilgrim statue of Our Lady of Fatima, "made according to Sister Lucia’s instructions, was offered by the Bishop of Leiria and solemnly crowned by the Archbishop of Evora, on the 13th of May 1947" (look it up). No immodesty there. No one thought to use the misunderstanding testimony to gainsay her because that was all it was. Various prelates had decades to bring it up. The modernist Fr. Dhanis and the rationalist Gerard de Sede didn't mention it, though they mentioned many other things long refuted (see 'The Whole Truth About Fatima' Vol.1, the critical study section at the end for the English translation. About 1/5 of the book is footnotes so it's well documented).:
---Introibo
I'll ignore all the documentation and believe whatever the Church tells me.
Delete@anon5:31
DeleteYou're doing a good job of ignoring the documentation!! What about The Pilgrim Statue modeled on Sr. Lucia's account? How do you explain that? How do you explain that no one else thought of this? How is it that Fr. Formagio was convinced? The Holy Office? The Holy Father? Guess they just ignored the evidence that brave guys like you don't!!
---Introibo
@anon1:55
DeleteThe Church NEVER pronounced that the BVM was dressed immodestly or strange. Please explain the Pilgrim Statue?
Provide the decree that has the BVM dressed immodestly.
---Introibo
@anon1:55
DeleteOh, and **I** didn't bring up anything--others did and it started with occultists using the files of Fatima to defame the Church!!
Hi Introibo, do you have passages from any books that give Francisco's own description of Our Lady's appearance? I think these would be good to have for research purposes.
ReplyDelete@anon3:39
DeleteI have gone through many sources. Maybe there is, but I have already put much more effort than I should on private revelations. Rome has spoken on this matter.
God Bless,
---Introibo
As the above blog post is about Fatima, to refresh everyone's memory about what has been said about Fatima in comments made on/to this blog recently, mention should be made of the Feb. 16, 2026 post "Public Scandals from Private Revelations." The preceding post of Feb. 9 = "The Holy Eucharist..." had quite a few comments about Fatima too, including one of Feb. 9 at 3:04PM by TradWarrior, where mention is made of the number 13 in connection with Queen Esther and Fatima. And finally, Joanna weighed in with her opinion on May 24 at 10:55AM, regarding one aspect of S. Speray's published output about Fatima (= as a comment of the May 18, 2026 post "Is it the Right Approach?"). FYI. God Bless.
ReplyDeleteIn the Dec. 8, 2025 post of this blog (= "The Sufferings...") three comments were made about Raccolta prayers, dated Dec. 12 at 12:22AM, Dec. 12 at 11:43AM, and Dec. 14 at 8:47PM. The 12:22AM comment was posing the question, to Introibo and all readers, about whether Popes Pius X, XI and XII were "lending credibility to a pious fraud" by allowing to be published in the Raccolta, an indulgenced prayer to Our Lady of Guadalupe. It took a little more than 6 months, but Introibo has now gotten around to answering that question. To quote from his above blog post:
ReplyDelete"I answer in the negative... I answer in the negative... Would the Holy Ghost permit the Church to give indulgences to a false / non-existent apparition? Once more, I answer in the negative."
ITA = I Totally Agree = I answer in the negative too. How about you? = What is your answer? ... With those quoted words, Introibo has now made perfectly clear, that he is opposed to at least some (or to much or most or all?) of the "Speray thesis", concerning Guadalupe. The above blog post is titled "Why I Believe In Our Lady of Fatima (And So Should You)". To that we can now add "Why I Believe in Our Lady of Guadalupe (And So Should You)."
Speray said he would debate anyone on Guadalupe. He said it doesn't exist and he can prove it.
ReplyDelete@anon8:24
DeleteI have not researched Our Lady of Guadalupe. Yet, we still have no one with Magisterial authority to defend it.
---Introibo
Also, Speray says he can provide theologians that say we don't have to believe in approved apparition. Its only an opinion. Speray showed an official church document that tells us the painter of guadalupe and everyone including the bishop acknowledged it.
ReplyDelete@anon8:30
DeleteI'd like to see the theologians cited and exactly what they said. I can only judge actual citations, not claims to have such.
---Introibo
To the Anon of 8:24AM and 8:30AM : With all due respect, you merely create the impression that you are a troll-ish troublemaker or agitator. In other words, please let Steven Speray speak for himself. We don't need your type of undocumented = no-source-citations (and to me, too obnoxious) observations. You could have pointed out instead that Mr. Speray already has made copious comments about Guadalupe (and other matters too), to Introibo's blog posts of Feb. 9 & 16, 2026. What is more, and as noted by others here in the past month, Steve's website has "gone private", which makes it look like he's not now in the mood to debate anybody, about private revelations. Why so? Only Steve can say (and he has the right to remain silent) but people are speculating that it might have something to do with Fatima flak.
DeleteIntroibo, earlier you said to someone that "Vacancy Pushers are like Dimondites" (June 23, 2026 @5:47 A.M.). So too are the Fatima (and other approved apparition) doubters or *minimizers*. As the Dimondites find any imperfection to exclude the possibility of salvation for souls who, as *God* might judge, might be of the right disposition, so also are a number of people (and at this time in particular which I find interesting), finding any imperfection, real or in appearance, as a reason to disbelieve certain popes or our Lady of Fatima - or rather both together as seems to be the main thrust of this campaign.
ReplyDeletecairsahr___stjoseph
DeleteVery interesting comment! I agree with you. I find the there were "Apparitionists" as I called them who made "the real" so-called message of an apparition to be dogma, and now their equal and opposite error, apparitions can be denied and even called demonic. This is then used to deny certain true popes or minimize the papacy.
Very insightful!
God Bless,
---Introibo
To cairsahr_stjoseph You spoke like a true apparitionist. You don't have to believe in any approved apparition. The Catholic Encyclopedia tells us this. The theologians cited in the article are giving the minority opinion. Speray himself has stated that he believes in all approved apparitions except Fatima and Guadalupe. You're statement is an unjust comparison. Fatima has real problems not addressed and Guadalupe is a complete myth with absolutely no evidence to support it. Your comment is indictment against Speray who has spent more time against the Dimondites than anyone I know. You, Introibo, Speray, and everyone here should not be fighting over this. We can all can have our opinions on private apparition. A few theologians giving their opinions shouldn't be dividing us on such matters when more important issues are out there. That's just my take. Speray probably should have kept silent but I'v learned a great deal on this issue of which I was so ignorant. I wish we could all just get along.
ReplyDelete@anon3:58
DeleteHe's not an Apparitionist at all.
* The Catholic Encyclopedia, while useful, is not on the same level as authors--not by a long shot. The minority opinion? As theologian Tanquerrey (an author) teaches: "MANY THEOLOGIANS are of the opinion that the persons themselves to whom such revelations are made and those for whom they are destined may believe in them with real Faith, provided they have had clear proof of their authenticity. (See The Spiritual Life: A Treatise on Ascetical and Mystical Theology, [1930], pg. 701; Emphasis mine).
*There are people who call Lourdes "Satanic." I can't wait until someone using private judgement decides the Magisterium got that wrong too.
* You write: "You're statement is an unjust comparison. Fatima has real problems not addressed and Guadalupe is a complete myth with absolutely no evidence to support it." Reply: Really? Are you privy to all the Church did in these investigations? There's no Magisterial guide and we would get good answers if we had a pope--answers that are binding.
* Steve has done more to debunk the Dimwits than anyone--I totally agree
God Bless,
---Introibo
Tanquerey also said: There is no obligation for the faithful to believe them [private revelation]. Even when the Church approves them she does not make them the object of Catholic faith, but as Benedict XIV states, she simply permits them to be published for the instruction and edification of the faithful. The assent to be given them is not therefore an act of Catholic faith, but one of human faith, based upon the fact that these revelations are "probable and worthy of credence." (Benedict XIV, De Serv. Dei Beatif., 1.II.c.32.n.11: "Although an assent of Catholic faith may not and can not be given to revelations thus approved, still, an assent of human faith, made according to the rules of prudence, is due them; for according to these rules such revelations are probable and worthy of credence." [Note that the word "probable" has a technical sense in moral theology, closer to meaning "reasonable" or "allowable" than "likely." -- Editor]) Private revelations may not be published without ecclesiastical approbation. (Decrees of Urban VIII, March 13, 1625 and of Clement IX, May 23, 1668.)
DeleteTanquerey then states, "Still, many theologians are of the opinion that the persons themselves..."
He adds this because we may believe with real faith if there's clear proof, but mere church approval is not clear proof or else he wouldn't have just stated beforehand that we are not obligated to believe. May believe is not the same as obligated to believe.
Tanquerey actually teaches the opposite to the other citations you provided and he uses Pope Benedict XIV to do so.
@anon9:30
DeleteTanqueray actually falls into the latter group. He did teach that there is no general obligation for the faithful to believe a private revelation as you cite. He also taught that the assent of Catholic faith should not be given them, but only human faith. On this last point all theologians are unanimous. The question is... "Is there ever an obligation to believe a private revelation?"
On this point, Tanqueray teaches:
"Private revelations should be believed by those to whom they occur, or by those for whom they take place, provided they are certainly established; they can be believed by those to whom they are directed, provided they are set forth by satisfactory arguments." (See "A Manual of Dogmatic Theology [1959], 1:207).
Tanqueray here answers the question YES they SHOULD BE believed (not MUST be and not CAN be). SHOULD indicates something that is right to do (e.g., you SHOULD be kind). Hence, there is some obligation is someone SHOULD do something.
---Introibo
You're contradicting yourself. We should be kind and not being kind is a sin. We should pray the rosary but not praying is not a sin. Should has different meanings. You're using it to mean obligated. Yes, we should believe if its established that its from heaven but that must done before the church approves because the person or persons involved could due before Church gets around approving. Tanquerey tells us what the approval means
Delete@anon7:46
DeleteFirst, you allege I'm misrepresenting Tanqueray. You obviously never read his manuals, I showed you with a citation that you are wrong.
Now, I'm "contradicting" myself. Let's be clear: Tanqueray taught there is some level of obligation for at least osme persons. Tanqueray distinguishes " by those to whom they occur, or by those for whom they take place,"
Such distinctions are unnecessary if no one has a duty of some kind to believe. just cite Pope Benedict and that's it.
---Introibo
@anon 3:58 P.M.
DeleteMy interest in Fatima as it pertains to these times has nothing to do with Apparitions in general. I generally accept what the Church teaches is to be accepted, whether or not I have any particular knowledge or interest in them. As I think Fatima, these times, and Apocalypse are all intimately linked I have particular interest in Fatima. It would not do to make the monumental mistake of failing to follow through on it.
I have read Tanquerey and he clearly says we are not obligated to believe in approved private Revelation and you say we are obligated under pain of sin. You have misrepresented him and the distinctions he made were not what you're saying.
Delete@anon5:45
DeleteOk. I'm not going back and forth with someone who is not good willed. You did not cite his Manual of Dogmatic Theology; why not if you read him? He makes important distinctions. If there is no need for anyone to believe then no distinctions are necessary. You have not proven anything other than your ability to repeat the same calumny. Does the level of obligation rise to the level of some sin? On that point, he is silent. Van Noort (to name but one) agrees it's sinful.
This thread is over.
---Introibo
Introibo,
ReplyDeleteWhat about the 5 first Saturday's? No one has said anything about this in the comments or anywhere. Are the promises approved? Are these just something superstitious that I should not have done? Or waisted my time doing if there was not merit in them?
@anon4:06
DeleteI absolutely mentioned the Five First Saturdays in this post.
Under the heading "The Catholicity of the Messages" I wrote:
"I would like to add to the Message of Fatima, the importance of wearing the Scapular, and making the Church-approved and spiritually fruitful devotion of the Five First Saturdays in reparation for the offenses committed against the Immaculate Heart of Mary."
This devotion was approved by numerous bishops with Ordinary Jurisdiction and the practice was never condemned by the Pope or any Roman Congregation.
I highly recommend the Five First Saturday devotion!
God Bless,
---Introibo
Introibo,
DeleteSo, because the first Saturdays were approved by the local bishop and not the Vatican, there is still a chance the promises of them may not be true? How does that work? How can we have certainty of these types of things that come out of private revelations? Like the first Friday's?
@anon8:45
DeleteThe approval of the bishops worldwide, with no dissenting bishops calling it into question, and no intervention against it from the Vatican--is approval! It is as certain as First Fridays.
God Bless,
---Introibo
I find it interesting that Introibo and Steve Speray are two of a very few traditional Catholics that have spent so much time and energy speaking on this interesting topic. Both men are on opposite sides here, but their writing is very thought provoking and many of us have learned so much from both of them. I know I have. I just find it interesting that more traditional clergy have not weighed into these discussions. Of course, the salvation of souls is the most important thing for priests to focus on and the traditional clergy drive long distances to take care of the few souls under their care, which is extremely admirable! But still, it seems like there should be more traditional clergy willing to enter into the discussion on these issues e.g. private revelations, the role of women, and other topics that these two great men have written extensively on. There is quite a lot of silence from many people who should be adding their voices to the discussion.
ReplyDeleteGod bless Introibo and Steve!
-TradWarrior
For those who are doubters in Fatima, I just wanted to share a chapter from Secret of the Rosary that I read recently. It doesn't have anything to do with Fatima but in this particular chapter St. Louis De Montfort (towards the end) explains how our attitude should be towards stories after telling some compelling stories at the beginning of this chapter of those who criticized praying the rosary. I will have to make two comments to fit it all in. I hope this edifying for those who read it below... Lee
ReplyDeleteTENTH ROSE: MIRACLES
"While Saint Dominic was preaching the Rosary in Carcassone, a heretic made fun of the miracles and the fifteen mysteries of the Holy Rosary, and this prevented other heretics from being converted. As a punishment God suffered fifteen thousand devils to enter the man's body.
His parents took him to Father Dominic to be delivered from the evil spirits. He started to pray and begged everyone who was there to say the Rosary out loud with him, and at each Hail Mary Our Lady drove one hundred devils out of the heretic's body and they came out in the form of red hot coals.
After he had been delivered he abjured his former errors, was converted and joined the Rosary Confraternity. Several of his associates did the same, having been greatly moved by his punishment and by the power of the Rosary.
The learned Franciscan, Carthagena, as well as several other authors, says that an extraordinary event took place in 1482: The Venerable James Sprenger and other religious of his order were zealously working to re-establish devotion to the Holy Rosary and also to erect a Confraternity in the city of Cologne.
Unfortunately two priests who were famous for their preaching ability were jealous of the great influence they were exerting through preaching the Rosary. So these two Fathers spoke against this devotion whenever they had a chance, and as they were very eloquent and had a great reputation they persuaded many people not to join the Confraternity.
One of them, bound and determined to achieve his wicked end, wrote a special sermon against the Rosary and planned to give it the following Sunday. But when it came time for the sermon he never appeared and, after a certain amount of waiting somebody went to fetch him. He was found dead, and evidently had died all alone without anyone to help him and without seeing a priest.
After convincing himself that death had been due to natural causes, the other priest decided to carry out his friend's plan and to give a similar sermon on another day. In this way he hoped to put an end to the Confraternity of the Rosary. However, when the day came for him to preach and it was time to give the sermon God punished him by striking him down with paralysis which deprived him both of the use of his limbs and of his power of speech.
At last he admitted his sin and likewise that of his friend and immediately, in his heart of hearts, he silently besought Our Lady to help him. He promised her that if she would only cure him he would preach the Holy Rosary with as much zeal as that with which he had formerly fought against it. For this end he implored her to restore his health and speech which she did, and finding himself instantaneously cured he rose up like another Saul, a persecutor turned defender of the Holy Rosary. He publicly acknowledged his former error and ever after preached the wonders of the Most Holy Rosary with great zeal and eloquence."
Part 1
Part 2
ReplyDelete"I am quite sure that freethinkers and ultra-critical people of today will question the truth of the stories in this little book, in the very same way that they have always questioned most things, but all that I have done has been to copy them from very good contemporary writers and also, in part, from a book that was written only a short time ago: The Mystical Rose Tree, by the Reverend Antonin Thomas, O.P.
Everyone knows that there are three different kinds of faith by which we believe different kinds of stories: To stories of Holy Scripture we owe Divine faith; To stories concerning other than religious subjects, which do not militate against common sense and which are written by trustworthy authors, we pay the tribute of human faith; whereas; To stories about holy subjects which are told by good authors and are not in the slightest degree contrary to reason, faith or morals (even though they may sometimes deal with happenings which are above the ordinary run of events) we pay the tribute of pious faith.
I agree that we must be neither too credulous nor too critical and that we should remember that "virtue takes the middle course"----keeping a happy medium in all things in order to find just where truth and virtue lie. But on the other hand I know equally well that charity easily leads us to believe all that is not contrary to faith or morals: "Charity . . . believeth all things;" [1] in the same way pride induces us to doubt even well authenticated stories on the plea that they are not to be found in the Bible.
This is one of the devil's traps; heretics of the past who denied Tradition have fallen into it and over-critical people of today are falling into it too without even realizing it.
People of this kind refuse to believe what they do not understand or what is not to their liking, simply because of their own spirit of pride and independence."
Lee,
DeleteThank you for this, my friend!
God Bless,
---Introibo
Esther Chronicles (Part 1) Is OL of Fatima Queen Esther?
ReplyDeleteWith Introibo's permission repeatedly graciously granted to publish my musings about Samson, a year ago this week, on June 20-23 of 2025, I was able to publish my first five Samson Chronicles installments here. There is much more to be said about Samson. So "stay tuned" for that. It should make sense to you eventually. Eventually, as God delivers on His promises.
The woman who appeared to 3 children at Fatima in 1917, was officially an "Anonymous" until her final appearance on Oct. 13, when she noted that she was "Our Lady of Rosary." She might just as well have told us that she was "Queen Esther", so saturated were the 1917 Fatima happenings with symbolism pointing at the biblical book of Esther. This is not the time and place to try to explain it all. One book does so half decently, "Fatima: The Signs and Secrets" by Marianna Bartold (KIC = Keeping It Catholic; of Lapeer, Michigan). I have a 2014 paperback copy in my possession. Mrs. Bartold is a Novus Ordite, and she doesn't say anything about the fake Sister Lucy impersonating the real one from the 1960s onwards. But even so, despite these defects, her book would probably rank, in my opinion, among the top ten best, in the English language, about Fatima. You can google up info about it by using keywords such as: marianna bartold fatima esther star secrets .
On my agenda for "Part 2" of "The Esther Chronicles", is to show that how the solar prodigy of Oct. 13, 1917 was made manifest, very possibly conveys a message about papal conclaves at the Vatican (or perhaps about one conclave in particular). Expressed mathematically, 3+3+3 = 9.
I am, 333777
Although Introibo states in his blog title above that he believes in Our Lady of Fatima, he never has been a "Grunerite", as once were Christopher A. (aka, Chris) Ferrara, and John Salza, and the late John Vennari. For more information about Fatima and "Grunerism", one can consult Introibo's previous posts "The Profits of Doom" (March 26, 2018); and "Will the Real Fatima Please Stand Up?" (Jan. 25, 2016); and "When Apparitions Become Dogma" (July 22, 2019).
ReplyDeleteTwo more of Introibo's posts that can be added to the three noted above at 4:56, are "False Accusations About a True Apparition" (May 23, 2022); and "Are Fatima and La Salette of Demonic Origin?" (Dec. 30, 2024).
Deletehttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatima_prayers
https://www.prayinglatin.com/fatima-prayer-latin-versions/
A subject on this blog to which both Leo (on Feb. 9, 2026 at 7:47PM), and Lee (on Dec. 31, 2024 at 11:56AM), drew attention, was the bewildering variety of ways in which the "Oratio Fatimae" has been worded, both in English and Latin and other languages. I even recall reading an article years ago claiming that some anonymous cleric at the Vatican had tampered with the original wording (perhaps in the 1930s or 1940s) in order to produce the text with which we are familiar today. Here is one version of the prayer:
"Oh my Jesus, forgive us, free us from the fires of Hell, take all souls to heaven, especially those most in need of it, and alleviate the souls in Purgatory, especially those most abandoned."
This is said to be a part of "8D. Fr. Formigao's interrogation of Lucia, 27 Sep 1917" as found on p. 464 of the book "Fatima the Spectacular", by Bernard F. Kohout (from my expanded edition of 2017). This book is mentioned by Introibo two paragraphs before the "Conclusion" of the above blog post, where Introibo spells the name of the author incorrectly as "Kahout". The book is a good one, and highly recommended. Also, the source cited is authoritative, direct from the Fatima archives, and from Sept. 1917, and translated for us into English.
Introibo:
ReplyDeleteFulton Sheen is scheduled to be beatified by the Novus Ordo in September.
If somebody wants to attend the beatification mass, unless they are lay religious(brothers or sisters), they have to purchase a ticket! Novus Ordo priests have to pay $25 each to concelebrate!
This is according to the Fulton Sheen Foundation website.
Introibo,
ReplyDeleteI commend your patience in answering downright rude comments. I know you do this mostly for the sake of those who visit your site who have ears to hear (as one of the good readers here has already pointed out) to get the information they need in order to make sense of what's been going on in the Church and in the world. You've been a tremendous help for years and I cannot thank you enough.
Cairsahr_stjoseph,
you made very astute observations. I agree with your commentary. There's a very alarming trend among some sedevacantists who think they have a right to question the decisions made by Pope Pius XII because to them he wasn't Pope St. Pius X. od course, he wasn't. The world changed dramatically after Pius X had died. Papa Pacelli was faced with even more evil and did what he thought was best at the time. Who's to say if Pius X wouldn't make the same kind of decisions Pius XII made if he'd been in his shoes?
Leo XIII urged Catholics to cooperate in civil matters with the French Republic even though the French state was extremely hostile to the Church. Are they going to call Leo XIII weak, , liberal, a Modernist and maybe cast a doubt on his papacy too? Was he a bridge to Vatican 2 like some have the temerity to claim of Pius XII? This is exactly what the Modernists have been pushing as their narrative of continuity with regards to Pius XII, his liturgical reforms, and the Vatican 2 deforms.
We've been 70 years without a true Pope. This is a horrifying state for a Catholic. Unfortunately, many don't seem to be bothered as long as they have their Traditionalist parish, buddy clergy, and pilgrimages and think it's ok to throw mud on what they believe was the last true Pope to date because there's no one to discipline them anyway. Disobedience seems to be the new normal even among some sedevacantists. I'm not pointing fingers at anyone. I'm an outsider and although it pains me much it seems it'll stay that way. God only knows.
I'm in full agreement with Introibo when it comes to the so-called imperfect council. It won't produce a true Pope beacuse our sedevacantist bishops are not unanimous about what they should be. If they can't agree that we should stick to what was tought and practiced up until Pius XII died, there's really no starting point for any discussion. Just imagine if we still had real theologians and canonists like Fr. DePauw who understood that 1958 must be the unifying principle for all Traditionalists.
Jannie, it's great to read your comments again! Thank you for what you wrote about the paganism going on with the climbers in the Himalayas. I had absolutely no idea that they sacrifice to the false gods before embarking on their selfish and pointless excursions. No wonder many never make their way home and perish there.
God Bless everyone,
Joanna
Joanna,
DeleteI agree with your comment. Very well said! Yes, I think that many people do make those claims that you mentioned. Leo XIII was a great pope and because he was sandwiched between Pius IX and St. Pius X, they see him as more of a “liberal” and not as strong as the other two. That is not a fair assessment. He was a very underrated and great pope. He did much good for the church. All three of those men had fantastic pontificates and they all were different. Certainly, the church would have been stronger had del Val been elected instead of Benedict XV or Pius XI, but we got who we got. Pius XI did much good during his reign and it is unfortunate that Benedict XV didn’t have the same “search and destroy” mentality against the modernists that St. Pius X did. Pius XII did many wonderful things in his pontificate that spanned nearly two decades. He can be criticized that he made some poor appointments, but we know that the church was so heavily infiltrated during the reign of Pius IX that when Pius XII was elected, the deck was so heavily stacked against him that the deluge was coming, no matter what. It was in fast gear and the Great Apostasy was not going to be derailed. That is just a fact. It’s easy to play “Monday Morning Quarterback” and point fingers in hindsight. We were not there. We were not privy to all of the conversations that went on behind closed doors as the traditionalists were fighting for the “heart and soul” of the church, trying to stop the juggernaut of an onslaught that was coming from the modernists. Unfortunately at times, some people take this too far and appear like they could have done much better had they been back in time and in the place of Leo XIII, Pius XII, or whoever was pope at the time. Sometimes, it seems like it is “Pope” Sanborn speaking and not Bishop Sanborn, or others for that matter. Some people do not seem to know their place. This is where we are now. This is the reality of the situation. We are nearing 70 years without a pope to guide us and it is only getting worse. If we go to that far of an extreme to deny Pius XII as a legitimate pope, then it is Pope Pius X, not St. Pius X, because there never existed a Pius XII to canonize Pius X. If we reject Pius XII’s holy week revisions because Bugnini was on the pontifical liturgical commission, then perhaps we need to reject Leo XIII on some levels too because Cardinal Rampolla was his Secretary of State and he tainted some of Leo XIII’s policies too. Where does it end? Soon we are not going back to saying the last true pope was in 1130AD, but rather it was St. Peter himself, because Linus will be discredited too. He must have done something really wrong and screwed everything up after Peter (Lol)!
And lastly, I agree with you. I also enjoy reading the comments of Jannie, and many others for that matter. I like the discussion that these topics create. I miss Leo’s comments too! Hopefully, he rejoins the discussion at some point.
God bless,
-TradWarrior
Joanna,
DeleteThank you for the kind words, my friend!
TradWarrior
You and Joanna are right on!
God Bless you both,
---Introibo
I agree with your concluding two sentences, TradWarrior. However, I strongly suspect that in all likelihood "RIP" is how we should probably now refer to "our Leo" = the frequent contributor here from Oct. 13, 2025 until March 8, 2026. Was he the most adept polyglot among us? Maybe. From some of what he said I got the distinct impression that he had to be at least in his 70s, and maybe a little bit older. It's hard to replace someone with his level of knowledge and wisdom. We'll see if we hear from him again, but I doubt it. And I doubt that someone who commented like he did for 5 months, would abruptly abstain for so long from adding in a few words now and then. Just my gut level feeling.
DeleteAs for you, TradWarrior, from a little bit of "back reading" I did recently, I see that apparently it was you -- yes, YOU -- who took the initiative to point out to everyone reading the comments of this blog, the (perhaps ??? ) alarming implications of Speray's new research into Guadalupe. It is what we see as comments made to the blog post here about Padre Pio, dated Jan. 27, 2025. It is interesting to re-read all of that in retrospect, in light of the above in general, and more specifically, in light of what Steve Speray had to say here about a year after that, in his comments to the Feb. 16, 2026 post.
Our Lady of Fatima, intercede for us all.
anon 10:59
DeleteYes, I'm afraid you may be right about Leo. I hope it isn't so though. His comments were always very insightful and I miss his contributions very much.
I've often wondered about what happened to Paweł (a fellow compatriot of mine from Poland) who used to be a regular commenter a few years ago. He also stopped commenting quite abruptly and we haven't heard from him since. JoAnn used to post comments on a regular basis too.
Let's keep them all in our prayers.We all need each other's support in this way no matter where we are.
God Bless,
Joanna
Thank you very much. God bless! +JMJ+
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