This week I continue my once-per-month series of posts regarding an informal study I undertook in the early 1990s regarding rock and pop music. The purpose of my study (and the background to it) can be read in the first installment of August 7, 2017. If you have not read that post, I strongly encourage you to do so before reading this installment. I will only repeat here the seven (7) evil elements that pervade today's music:
1. Violence/Murder/Suicide
2. Nihilism/Despair
3. Drug and alcohol glorification
4. Adultery/ Fornication and sexual perversion
5. The occult
6. Rebellion against lawful superiors
7. Blasphemy against God, Jesus Christ in particular, and the Church
The exposing of the bands/artists continues.
Nirvana and Kurt Cobain
This week, April 5th marks the 24th anniversary of the suicide of Kurt Cobain (b.1967), founder, lead singer, and guitarist for the quintessential alternative rock band Nirvana. The group was started by Cobain in 1987, and although they only released three full length studio albums, Nirvana has sold an incredible 75 million albums worldwide. Nirvana is ranked number 27 on Rolling Stone magazine's "100 Greatest Artists of All Time," and Cobain is ranked by the magazine as number 45 among "The 100 Greatest Singers of All Time," and number 75 among "The 100 Greatest Guitarists of All Time." They were inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame in 2004, their first year of eligibility.
Cobain and Nirvana are considered one of the most (if not the most) influential musicians of the 20th century. Nirvana has been called "The Beatles of the 90's," and Cobain "The John Lennon of the 90's." Just like The Beatles and Lennon, they are anti-Christian and spread an evil message. Cobain formed the band with high school friend Chris Novoselic (b. 1965) who played bass, and they recruited Dave Grohl (b. 1969) to play drums. The band was originally to be called Fecal Matter, but Cobain decided on "Nirvana," the pagan Hindu and Buddhist concept of a release from reincarnation, where your individuality is "blown out" like a candle.
Cobain: In Open Rebellion Against God
Born in Aberdeen, Washington, Kurt Cobain's parents divorced when he was seven, an event that greatly traumatized him. He said, "I had a really good childhood… then a classic case of divorce really affected me." He would spend the rest of his childhood bounced between his mother and father, who considered him a "nuisance." Sent away to live with family friends who were "born-again" Christians, Cobain joined the sect, but it did not last long. (See https://hollowverse.com/kurt-cobain).
Around the age of 13, he became a frequent drug abuser, and became full fledged heroin addict by 1986. He penned songs full of despair and misery, echoing the state into which he had gotten himself. Cobain then turned to Satan worship as a way out and achieve respect and success. According to biographer Christopher Sandford, Cobain made it known publicly that his stated goal was to "get stoned and worship Satan" (See Kurt Cobain, Carroll & Graff Publishers, Inc., New York, 1997, pg. 42).
Cobain was an admitted bisexual, and he would desecrate churches with Novoselic. According to Sandford, he spray-painted "GOD IS GAY" on the side of a Church and he would take song lyrics he was dissatisfied with and set them on "...fire and leave [them] burning on the porch of the Open Bible Church." Rolling Stone magazine reports he spray-painted "ABORT CHRIST" on the side of a church. In that same article, it is stated that "Cobain made a satanic-looking doll and hung it from a noose in his window." (April 16, 1992 issue). His biographer confirms that Cobain decorated his apartment with "baby dolls hanging by their necks with blood all over them," and he sported a most blasphemous decapitated statue of the Blessed Virgin Mary. (Kurt Cobain, pgs. 54 & 89).
That a man this depraved could be seen as a "hero" and the anniversary of his suicide "commemorated" demonstrates the depths to which our society has sunk. Unfortunately, Cobain's degeneracy doesn't stop with sick and sacrilegious acts. He became involved with witchcraft and began casting spells. He met occultist author William Burroughs, a whore-monger and bisexual pervert whose book Naked Lunch (1959) was so perverse that it went to court as it was considered a violation of the U.S. anti-sodomy laws. Burroughs "accidentally" killed his wife in Mexico while drunk and "playing William Tell" with a pistol in 1951. He was convicted of manslaughter and spent time in prison. Burroughs had such an influence on Cobain that, "William S. Burroughs received ‘special thanks’ on In Utero [Nirvana's third album] for being a cherished inspiration to Cobain."(See Chuck Chrisafulli, Teen Spirit, Simon & Schuster, pg. 6 [1996]).
Cobain was obsessed with Church of Satan founder, and author of the Satanic Bible, Anton LeVay. He wanted LeVay to play cello on Nirvana's first album, but for reasons unknown, it never happened. It was through his involvement with witchcraft leading to Satanism that Cobain's inspiration for songs came via "automatic writing." This is a process by which a person's hand moves without them consciously controlling it. Demons are thus channeled. According to the Rolling Stone interview, Cobain was "...stumbling on melodies by means he himself didn’t fully understand."
As a result of his inspirations for songs, the band was signed to it's first major label, DGC Records, and they put out their second album entitled Nevermind in 1991. The first single, Smells Like Teen Spirit, was an instant success; so much so the song has been referred to as the "anthem of alternative rock." By Christmas of that year, the album was selling 400,000 copies per week, outselling Michael Jackson, and culminating with 30 million copies sold. DMG was shocked as they didn't expect it to sell more than 250,000 copies in total. Immediately shooting to superstardom, the band put out its third album In Utero in 1993, another enormous success.
Nihilistic Rantings
 |
| In the original cover, the baby's penis is clearly displayed. Outrage from decent people forced them to put out a second cover without displaying the genitalia of the child |
Cobain's demon-inspired music changed the face of rock (and even pop) music. While the message of rock and pop in the 1960s-1980s was about attacking traditional values, Nirvana led the way to attacking human existence itself. The ideology they sold was that human life is a waste spent in pain, and that the lives of others only serve to compound each person's suffering. Everyone is better off dead. Cobain, in spite of his Satanic beliefs, also held to pagan ideas as well. "Nirvana" is defined as, "... a blowing out, or extinction, of the flame of life; reunion with Brama." Cobain told Rolling Stone, "I would prefer to be in a coma and just be woken up and wheeled out on stage and play and then put back in my own little world."
The song Polly is about the abduction and rape of a 14 year old girl which took place in Washington. It's based on a true story in 1987 when the girl was forcibly taken while leaving a rock concert. The malevolent miscreant proceeded to suspend her upside down from a pulley in his mobile home and then raped and tortured her with a blow torch. The song is told from the "point of view of the rapist." "Sick" doesn't even begin to adequately describe someone who would pen this song.
Polly wants a cracker
I think I should get off her firstI think she wants some water
To put out the blow torch
It isn't me
We have some seed
Let me clip
Your dirty wings
Let me take a ride
Don't cut yourself
I want some help
To please myself
I've got some rope
You have been told
I promise you
I have been true
Let me take a ride
Don't cut yourself
I want some help
To please myself
Polly wants a cracker
Maybe she would like some food
She asks me to untie her
A chase would be nice for a few
It isn't me
We have some seed
Let me clip
Your dirty wings
Let me take a ride
Don't cut yourself
I want some help
To please myself
I've got some rope
You have been told
I promise you
I have been true
Let me take a ride
Don't cut yourself
I want some help
To please myself
Polly said
Polly says…
The song Lithium is about religion being the "opiate of the masses" as Communist founder Karl Marx said.
I've found my friends
They're in my head
I'm so ugly, but that's okay, 'cause so are you
We've broken our mirrors
Sunday morning is everyday for all I care
And I'm not scared
Light my candles in a daze
'Cause I've found god (sic)
Hey, hey, hey
I'm so lonely but that's okay I shaved my head
And I'm not sad
And just maybe I'm to blame for all I've heard
But I'm not sure
I'm so excited, I can't wait to meet you there
But I don't care
I'm so hor*y but that's okay(vulgarity censored by me)
My will is good
Hey, hey, hey
I like it, I'm not gonna crack
I miss you, I'm not gonna crack
I love you, I'm not gonna crack
I killed you, I'm not gonna crack
I like it, I'm not gonna crack
I miss you, I'm not gonna crack
I love you, I'm not gonna crack
I killed you, I'm not gonna crack
The song I Hate Myself and I Wanna Die glorifies suicide and would become a "self-fulfilling prophesy:"
Runny nose and runny yolk
Even if you have a cold still
You can cough on me again
I still haven't had my fulfill
End it someday what's that sound?
End it someday what's that sound?
End it someday what's that sound?
End it someday what's that sound?
Broken heart and broken bones
Finger plaster cast and horse pills
One more quirky cliche'd phrase
You're the one I wanna refill
End it someday what's that sound?
End it someday what's that sound?
Cobain: Misanthropic Pervert Who Takes His Own Life
 |
| Cobain in his [usual] drugged out state |
When journalist Lynn Hirschberg wrote of his wife, Courtney Love, unfavorably in Vanity Fair by calling into question her alleged use of cocaine while pregnant, Cobain stated, "I’m going to kill this women with my bare hands. I’m going to stab her to death. First I’m going to take her dog and slit its guts out in front of her and then sh*t all over her and stab her to death.” (See Kurt Cobain, pg. 172).
That he hated people is evident from his biography where he is quoted as saying, "Ninety-nine per cent of humanity could be shot if it was up to me." (Do you think this might have something to do with school shootings? The youth look up to creeps like him). His biographer muses, "Nirvana and the new fauna of Seattle rock shared a number of attitudes and taste, including a form of exoticism centered on punk, a public display of apathy, a disinterest in work, the cult of feminism, and the subversion of traditional values via music."
On April 5, 1994, Cobain went home and shot himself in the head with a shotgun. His suicide note was addressed to his "invisible friend" named "Bodda." He complained that "his muse had gone south." Typically, Satan gives you power only to take it away and leave you in despair. Despite having a wife and child, his music was the only thing he really cared about and it made him want to live; now it was seemingly gone, and he took his life at age 27. He thought of the false idea of reincarnation, "If you die you’re completely happy and your soul somewhere lives on. I’m not afraid of dying. Total peace after death, becoming someone else is the best hope I’ve got." Having gone to judgement, Kurt Cobain knows the truth, and he's not someone else.
Conclusion
Kurt Cobain and Nirvana poisoned impressionable youth with a nihilistic view of life. Cobain looked for solutions in paganism, drugs, and Satan himself. He "aborted Christ," the Only One Who could save him from his misery and give real meaning and purpose to his life. Worse, his music is giving the youth ideas that life is hopeless and you're better off dead. For those who think music couldn't influence people like that, tell it to the family of Daniel Casper, a then 28 year old man, who shot himself in the head upon coming home from a vigil for Cobain. A sixteen year old girl also went home from the vigil that day, locked herself in her room with Nirvana music blasting and shot herself in the head like her idol.
According to Metropolitan Life Insurance Company, the suicide rate for teens more than doubled between 1962 and 1982. (When the faith was taken away via Vatican II). Between 1980 and 1995 the suicide rate doubled again for youth ages 10 to 14. Suicide has become the second leading cause of death among youth ages 15 to 18. But no one wants to blame the evil messages in music and the new paganism in the wake of the Great Apostasy. Ozzy Osbourne was sued because his song Suicide Solution led to teenage suicides, but First Amendment "artistic freedom" allowed Osbourne to prevail.
The youth are going in the wrong direction. David Hogg, a survivor of the Parkland shooting wants to take away the guns while doing nothing to uproot the reasons behind the shootings. It's analogous to banning cars to stop drunk driving. Do you think maybe the booze had something to do with it? If you really want to "March for Our Lives"---embrace the True Faith and March to Christ and His Mother.
To my readers: Mr. Michael Cain, owner of the magnificent website DailyCatholic.org, is fighting a brave battle against lung cancer. His bravery and resignation to God's Will is incredible; he is an inspiration. Along with Novus Ordo Watch, DailyCatholic.org is among the best Traditionalist Catholic websites. Please pray for Mr. Cain, keep him in your prayers, and have Masses said if possible. In these terrible times of the Great Apostasy, we need great people like Mike. He is truly "one of the good guys."---Introibo
To my readers: Mr. Michael Cain, owner of the magnificent website DailyCatholic.org, is fighting a brave battle against lung cancer. His bravery and resignation to God's Will is incredible; he is an inspiration. Along with Novus Ordo Watch, DailyCatholic.org is among the best Traditionalist Catholic websites. Please pray for Mr. Cain, keep him in your prayers, and have Masses said if possible. In these terrible times of the Great Apostasy, we need great people like Mike. He is truly "one of the good guys."---Introibo
These preachers of nihilism are very reminiscent of the catharos of the Middle Ages. It is amazing how much this worm in the form of belief does not die, always returning from the most abyssal pits.
ReplyDeleteTrue!
Delete—-Introibo
Hello Introibo. Great post as usual. I want to make two points: 1) Title of Nirvana's first album was "Illiteracy Will Win" which in itself is very foretelling and 2) David Hogg was labeled by the media as the shooting survivor where in reality he is no more that a witness of a shooting incident.
ReplyDeleteThank you for the information! You make two excellent points!
Delete—-Introibo
Bleach was the title of their first full length LP.
DeleteYes, you are correct that “Bleach” was indeed the name of Nirvana’s first full-length album. “Illiteracy Will Win” was the name of the first recording of Cobain’s work with “Fecal Matter” the disgusting name of the group. Cobain originally wanted to keep the name for the new line-up, but decided on “Nirvana.”
DeleteSome consider “Illiteracy” to therefore be “the first Nirvana album” because it came from Cobain.
—-Introibo
Introibo - I always knew Nirvana was depraved but never knew just how depraved until I read this article. Thanks for writing!!
ReplyDeleteThank you Joann! Most people don’t realize just how bad secular rock and pop bands are in their lifestyles and lyrics. It was an eye-opener for me when I did my research. Now, I’m happy to share my findings with my readers.
DeleteGod Bless,
—-Introibo
I grew up in this era & was a full flegded punk rock wanna be degenerate.
ReplyDeleteEVERYTHING you say about 90's youth culture going from terrible in the 80's to complete abomination in the 90's is the absolute truth!
I was there and regretfully lived it for over 14 yrs.
I agree with what you say regarding Kurt Cobain as it's verifiable and true.
The only caveat being a documentary produced by a detective who worked on Kurt Cobain's suicide entitled
"Soaked in Bleach."
There is overwhelming evidence that he was murdered.
God bless keep up the great work.
Thank you for commenting my friend! Deo gratias on your conversion to the True Church and out of that evil culture of 90s alternative.
DeleteYou’re in my prayers!
God Bless,
—-Introibo
If you go to the Wikipedia article on "Soaked in Bleach," you will find under the heading "Controversy" that it's been hotly disputed that Cobain was murdered.
DeleteIt's always the case that entrepreneurs/opportunists will cater to the appetites of the cult followers of these tragic figures for pecuniary gain. The devotees always want to believe a version of the "truth" that doesn't make the object of their devotion look weak and pathetic etc. Ergo, being murdered is always infinitely preferable to checking out via shotgun blast because life in general and those pesky fans just became too much to handle.
That's why Elvis will be spotted this week in New Orleans chowing down on Gumbo...or maybe somewhere on Route 66 enjoying a peanut butter and banana sandwich fried in butter... lots of butter! :)
The documentary was produced by the detective be who worked on his case.
DeleteThe evidence is staggering and I am not a cult devotee of Kurdt Cobain.
'Zack Sigel wrote for VH1 that the film presents "Flimsy evidence, personal agendas, and blatant disregard for facts".'
ReplyDeletehttps://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soaked_in_Bleach
You may be right. He may have been murdered. But whether he was or not it doesn't detract from the super-willingness of the diehard fans of those such as Cobain to cling to beliefs other than the official finding.
Suicide, for example, makes their idol look weak, pathetic, imbalanced and selfish. As another example: The possibility that Elvis may still be alive is infinitely better for his fans than him dying of a heart attack while on the toilet. It's simply not as "romantic" for the "King" to have keeled over during ablutions. The point I'm making is that all these alternative scenarios easily gain traction because there are many that are desperate to believe something more palatable than the simple facts.
But all this distracts from the fact that Introibo has written an excellent article on Cobain which is yet another sad and horrific tale about someone who was "Singing For Satan."
I disagree with anonymous 10:37. Murder doesn't have close to the same clout as suicide among rock stars. Suicide is the ultimate show of personal power to fans because their hero decided when he will check out and on what terms. It is a fitting end to their lives of rebellion, drugs, sex etc. It teaches their followers that after living a life of debauchery against the commandments, they can CHOOSE to finish it off just the same way they lived- rebellion. It also sends a message that they don't fear death. This elevates them to god-like status among their followers and it is why so many young people go on to follow their examples. They stick their middle finger up at the Almighty and put the shotgun to the head. Do what thou want is the whole of the law. For this breed of man it is all about living on the edge. They are idolized because they are risk takers who smash cultural norms. Their suicidal deaths, usually by drug overdose, is one of the most laudable legacies they will leave behind. Murder doesn't do any of this. Death by one's choice is the ultimate farewell high. That is my take anyways.
DeleteI find the exchange between the anonymous commenters regarding suicide vs. murder to be most interesting.
DeleteI will say this: Violence/Murder/Suicide are one of the seven evil elements that pervade rock/pop/rap music. Cobain glorified suicide, even if he was murdered. Those who sing the praises of violence (literally)will often die violently. They attract people of a like mind set, and get others to see violations of the Fifth Commandment as "no big deal," or even something to "romanticize.
The Police, Pearl Jam, Elton John,Kid Rock, Pink Floyd, and a host of other artists have promoted one or more songs glorifying suicide. There was even a band "Suicidal Tendencies."
In February 1986, eighteen-year-old Phillip Morton, hung himself from a closet door in Delafield, Wisconsin. Pink Floyd's album The Wall, which includes such songs as "Goodbye Cruel World" and "Waiting for the Worms," was playing continuously in the background.
The message of "life is meaningless, so kill yourself" is pervasive--much more pervasive than most people realize. It results in people acting out on those lyrics, including sometimes the very person who wrote the song--like Cobain. We must expose the evil and warn people of the dangers of modern secular music.
---Introibo
Introibo - I don't disagree with a word you've typed.
DeleteIt all gets back to: Who's inspiring these lyrics? That is, as you well know, the key to understanding the "why" of all these attendant problems to Rock/Pop/Punk/Rap "music."
Objectively, the whole music and film industry is just another proof that Satan is real and hard at work, despite what the Bergomeister may tell you.
That’s the truth, my friend!
Delete—-Introibo
VH1 & Wikipedia said the documentary is flimsy,so it must be true!!
DeleteAll I stated was the evidence for him being murdered is staggering.
Will you please stop putting words in my mouth and acting like I demand everyone believe he was murdered?!?!
Maybe he committed suicide or maybe he didn't,I have no idea.
The detective who worked that case was truly troubled by what seemed to be a young man murdered and his daughter growing up without her Father.
10:37 to 5:30
ReplyDeleteI agree with you to a certain degree. But unless you're a fan who's an Aleister Crowley-lovin' Thelema-following demonic sicko, you dont applaud the suicides of your Rock 'n' Roll idols. You act like normal humans, and look upon them as tragedies. You mourn the losses, you do not applaud them as acts of rebellion, especially in the case in question where it's understood that the victim suffered from depression for years and was a hopeless drug addict whose untimely death left behind a wife and small child. (Btw, I've since read Cobain's suicide note. It was not a letter indicating that he chose "the ultimate farewell high.")
"Upon hearing the news, the outpouring of grief from Cobain’s inner circle and fans everywhere, was understandably overwhelming. On April 10, some 7,000 mourners gathered at a park in the Seattle Center for a public vigil. Those in attendance heard pre-recorded messages by Nirvana bassist Krist Novoselic and Love, who read aloud portions of the suicide note. Later, Love arrived at the park to talk with fans and reportedly gave away articles of Cobain’s clothes to some of those who still remained. In the days that followed, Love publicly mourned with fans standing vigil outside her home"
(Link to article below)
http://diffuser.fm/kurt-cobain-death-anniversary/
We all were given special graces or else we would be just like or worse than Cobain. Great Article as usual. Keep them
ReplyDeleteComing.
Jesus and Mary,
David
Thanks David! I will keep this series going as long as I have material to publish AND my readers are getting something out of it. Thanks for telling me you profit from this research.
DeleteGod Bless,
---Introibo
Introibo ad altare, i have read some of your articles about satanic musicians. I think they are very good.
DeleteI would like to suggest you some rock bands who can look very innocent from the distance, but i think they are dangerous as usual. They are: The who, Arctic mokeys, Radiohead, and Foo figthers.
I hope that you can do the articles and that they help poor souls enslaved to them.
To the greater glory of God.
Long Life Christ the King and Our Lady from Guadalupe.
Thank you for the suggestions. I will look into them.
DeleteGod Bless,
—-Introibo
I read where Cobain had two Uncles who suffered with mental illness and alcoholism and both committed suicide with a gun. Perhaps part of the reason for the path Cobain took was due to mental illness and he was trying to self-medicate with drugs. The drugs evidently opened the pathway to Satan. Just a thought.
ReplyDeleteen.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurt_Cobain (Section -Health, Para. 1)
That could very well be true, Joann. What really bothers me is the complete apathy of the Vatican II sect in regard to these artists. They are sending evil messages and the sect’s clergy think nothing of it.
DeleteThey actually use some of these songs at their “Life Teen” youth “masses.” On Long Island there’s even a radio show called “Religion and Rock” hosted by “Fr” Tom Vaughn. He’s honest enough not to use his title, he’s just plain ol’ Tom! His co-host is a Jew named Shaldon, and he was talking about the “deep spiritual meaning” of rock songs. The show was live on Sunday morning, so I guess more members of the sect listen to radio than attend church.
I caught the end of his show after a Real Mass one Sunday, to hear Tom talking about “the spirituality of Aerosmith.” Aerosmith was a heavy metal group of the 70s and 80s and about as perverse as can be. The song he asked his listeners to “meditate upon” was Aerosmith’s song “Love in an Elevator,” which tells the story of a man having sex in an elevator with a woman he just met. What “deep spiritual meaning” is there to “meditate upon”—-except perhaps the V2 sect is going to take the world to Hell in a hand basket; or more appropriately, an elevator. “Next stop, the bottom floor. You’ll find fire, demons, Satan, and eternal punishment.”
—-Introibo
Introibo - A friend of mine teachers at a Novus Ordo school. I was told the school had a prayer service for the Florida shooting and they played John Lennon’s Imagine. Francis would approve since he states there is no hell. When I think the Vatican II sect can’t possibly get any worse, it does!!
DeleteMore than that Joann, “Imagine,” says there’s no Heaven either—-“above us only sky...”
DeleteIt’s an atheist anthem and that’s ok with Frankie too, since he said “Atheists can go to Heaven.”
Need I say you’re 100% right, just when you think they’ve hit rock bottom, the floor drops lower.
God pity us and help us!
—-Introibo
'The song he asked his listeners to “meditate upon” was Aerosmith’s song “Love in an Elevator,” which tells the story of a man having sex in an elevator with a woman he just met.'
DeleteThe only thing that "meditation" of the above will produce is impure thoughts. Good one, "Fr." Tom!
By the grace of God, I never was interested in rock and roll, though I know a little about classical composers, and many of their lives and deaths were not particularly edifying either.
ReplyDeleteThe suicide trend among the famous has been going on for a long time, encompassing movie stars, musicians, and ironically, comedians. It's remarkable how many of the most well-known comedians, people who made millions of fans laugh for years, ended their own lives or were murdered. A quick rundown of the Saturday Night Live RIP roster will bear this out.
One thread that might pull all of this together is the lack of a stable home life. There might be exceptions, but I doubt that any of these people came from homes where both parents were present, loving their children and giving them a good example.
Very true, Barbara. Lack of a stable home can lead to alienation from God, and that's when everything goes wrong. Concerning comedians, you may want to read my post on the suicide of Robin Williams, August 17, 2014 "Reincarnation, Possession, And Suicide."
DeleteGod Bless.
---Introibo
I loved Nirvana when I was a teenager. I was raised in a protestant family and at the time I was still some kind of protestant myself. The fact that by those years I was not a English speaker somehow helped me not to get entirely infected with Nirvana's lyrics, but even so, when my mother passed away, I found some comfort listening to grunge bands, like Nirvana, once they transpired the revolt and suicide feelings that I had at that time...
ReplyDeleteThanks for another great article, Introibo.
I’m sorry for the loss of your mom, my friend. However, I’m happy you found your way out of the influence of evil music and have come into the One True Church!
DeleteGod Bless,
—-Introibo
Introibo - I have an off topic question. I keep coming across various articles that state that Vatican II was not binding or infallible. Can you explain this? Is this part of the Recognize and Resistors? Thanks!!
ReplyDeleteIt is indeed part of the R&R nonsense. If Montini (Paul VI) was truly pope, then all of Vatican II is binding on the faithful as part of the Universal and Ordinary Magisterium.
DeleteIn 1966, Montini stated, “...but it [Vatican II] nevertheless endowed its teachings with the authority of the supreme Ordinary Magisterium, which ordinary (and therefore obviously authentic) Magisterium must be docilely and sincerely received by all the faithful, according to the mind of the Council regarding the nature and scope of the respective documents."
Every document of Vatican II ends with this clause, “Each and every matter declared in this Dogmatic Constitution the Fathers of this Sacred Council have approved. And We by the Ap- ostolic Authority handed down to Us from Christ, together with all the Venerable Fathers, in the Holy Ghost approve, decree and es- tablish these things; and all things thus synodally established, We order to be promulgated unto the glory of God...I, Paul, Bishop of the Catholic Church. There follow the signatures of the rest of the Fathers." (AAS 57 [1965], 71)
There’s no room to declare V2 non-binding. Even if non-infallible, a decree of a true pope must be obeyed. Paul VI declared V2 as binding.
If someone objects, “But the pope has no authority to change Tradition” they got it backwards. A real pope would be prevented by the Holy Ghost from, e.g., introducing Protestant incentives to impiety in the Mass.
It’s not that the pope “has no power to change” dogma, but rather A CHANGE MEANS HE HAD NO AUTHORITY. He either ceased to be pope due to profession of heresy as a private teacher BEFORE promulgating such a decree or law—-or he never held the office of pope in the first place (like Wojtyla, Ratzinger and Bergoglio).
—-Introibo
I have questions ¿Recognize and resistors are going to hell?. Because some R&R blogs i have read have excellent articles wich are very Cristian but still they "recognize" the novus ordo popes. I think those people are well intended Catholics altough they are confused or do not reflect about this topic because they think they are fine. I think they need to stop recognizing the "pope" if they want to keep resisting. But i am worried they can be condemned because after all, they are people and a Catholic must care about other people souls.
DeleteI don’t believe R&R are going to Hell. They are confused as to the identity of the pope (we don’t have one), but they are not thereby outside the Church.
DeleteGod Bless,
—-Introibo
Thank you, Introibo Ad Altare Dei!. I hope they finally accept that novus ordo popes are not popes. Maybe the downfall of the FSSPX help them to recognize their theories are flawed. If they pray the Rosary and go to Holy Mass with devotion and love for God, they will.
DeleteVery good, Introibo.
ReplyDeleteBut if I may add the following.
OBJECTIVELY: Paul VI was a pseudo-pope.
OBJECTIVELY: Vatican II is neither binding or infallible.
SUBJECTIVELY: (i,e. in the minds of the R&Rs) Paul VI was putative Pope.
SUBJECTIVELY the R&R crowd is bound to follow his (Paul VI's) decrees, new mass etc.
HOWEVER, the R&R crowd conveniently disobey their (subjectively) valid pontiff at will, justifying this by means of a warped and twisted ecclesiology that was invented by the SSPX in the 1970s, and which reduced the Pope to a cardboard cutout whom one only obeys if the orthodox (yet unorthodox) Pope happens to say or do something that accords with Catholicism, otherwise he is to be ridiculed and ignored.
I think that about sums it up for a quick and simple explanation of their insanity.
That sums it up well!
Delete—-Introibo
Thanks much Introibo and Anonymous 6:20!! Now I know why whenever I come across the Recognize and Resistors, my head starts spinning. What they are doing isn’t even logical or Catholic. Thanks again!!
DeleteHi JoAnn, you really should study the R & R position before judging it. The people of this blog are mostly of a schismatic sect called Sedevacantists. I ask you to do something the author of this blog outright refuses to do and that is to actually read John Salza and Robert Siscoe's book "True or False Pope" for yourself. Also, please read "The Pope, the Council, and the Mass" by Likoudis and Whitehead. The reason Introibo will not read the first book is because it refutes him. Read it for yourself.
Delete@anon 6:56
DeleteSedevacantists are simply Catholics and not part of the Vatican II sect. We believe that the Church cannot give that which is evil, and that a heretic cannot be pope. Salza and Siscoe deny both. If Joann has the time to read a 700 page tome that attempts to “prove” that and “refutes” me I would like for her to see just how flimsy the arguments really are.
As to Salza see my post on him:
http://introiboadaltaredei2.blogspot.com/2016/01/double-agent.html?m=1
I attended law school with guys like him that give the rest of us lawyers a bad name. Thankfully they usually get disbarred at some point for dishonesty in one form or another.
I have the book, and to the best of my knowledge and belief even the SSPX doesn’t sell it anymore. I must say that although it does nothing to refute the Sedevacantist position it does serve as a cure for insomnia, and it comes in handy when the Charmin runs out.
—-Introibo
This is Anonymous @ 6:20
DeleteIntroibo:
Great commentary on Salza & Siscoe!
JoAnne:
Salza and his chief disciple make it a habit to wander the Internet looking for converts to their shoddy theology. If you'd like to immerse yourself in 700 pages of buthchered Roman Theology, ToFP is a must read. (Btw, anonymous shodmeister - you need correcting. The people on this site are mostly CATHOLICS whom believe we are currently in a prolonged state of sede vacante, which is a distinction you conveniently twist to end up declaring us schismatics. You're so happy to make false judgments but simply can't make the one judgment that's important about Francis' heresy and apostasy which precludes him from holding any office in the Church, let alone pope.)
JoAnn, I'd suggest you visit here:
http://tradcath.proboards.com/board/40/true-false-pope-refutation-page
Pay particular attention to "Nazianzen" who has done a fine job of exposing and eviscerating Messrs. Salza & Siscoe, pointing out among other things how disingenuous they truly are.
Classic of the day: "I attended law school with guys like him that give the rest of us lawyers a bad name. Thankfully they usually get disbarred at some point for dishonesty in one form or another." Lol
Anyone who is honest can go to www.trueorfalsepope.com and read their section "sedevacantist watch" and see that their 55 posts have never really been refuted. The book by Likoudis is also good. Both refute Sedevacantism.
DeleteAnon 9:59 you are not "just Catholics." You are an "ecclesia-vacantist."
Anon @6:56 - I only found the True Church 3 years ago. I hardly ever went to the Novus Ordo because it was NOT the Church I grew up in of the 1950’s. It is Protestant. Is “Pope” Francis Catholic, not by a long shot. Neither were Ratingzer or JPII. Real Popes DO NOT worship with Pagans nor do real Catholics uphold so called “Popes” who do. I don’t need to read a 700 page book. Common sense tells me that the R&R’s are recognizing FALSE “Popes”. Yes, REAL Popes are Catholic, not Francis, JPII, or Ratzinger. They are anything and everything but Catholic.
Delete@anon 4:51
DeleteNo, we are Catholics as Joann recognizes the difference between real popes and false ones who started a new sect at Vatican II.
Siscoe, Salza, and the rest of the R&R are menta-vacantists—-The Mind is empty.
—-Introibo
Introibo - Just curious. Who started the Recognize and Resist movement?
DeleteJoann,
DeleteThere is no one founder of the R&R. When the Great Apostasy took place, good clerics and Catholic laity didn’t know how to respond. There were some Sedevacantists right from the start, but there were others who thought Vatican II would end shortly and didn’t want to consider this rotten world without a pope.
Such was Archbishop Lefebvre, who definitely was open to Sedevacantism. Unfortunately, when he began “negotiations” with Wojtyla (JPII), he started to take the R&R line with vigor and persecuted Sedevacantist clergy in the SSPX. That’s why nine priests broke away in 1983 to found the SSPV. Those who follow in these times, with all we know, the R&R position is unreal. It’s harder and harder for me to consider them in good faith. They don’t want to face the truth, or they have another agenda.
God Bless,
—-Introibo
As I anticipated, you resort to insults but you will never address the posts mentioned. You can't. You have no answer for their articles which expose your contradictions involving the most important pieces of your position. They even quote all of your favorite theologians such as Suarez, John of St. Thomas, Bellarmine, etc. against the ecclesiavacantists. You can't answer them or you would have done it by now since the book is already a couple of years old. The best you can do is insult them which is really what you do best on your blog. But insults against me or them are not a Catholic response. If you can address their positions then maybe more people from the R & R side will accept ecclesiavacantism as legitimate. But I already know you are not about to address their research.
DeleteAs I anticipated you have no idea about the purpose of my blog. I write on a plethora of topics of interest to Traditionalist that don’t get addressed by the Vatican II sect.
DeleteMy favorite theologians in the area of Sedevacantism are not the ones you list.
I do not spend time on one topic. For a complete refutation of Salza, in my opinion, a double agent who is still a Mason keeping people recognizing false pope Bergoglio, he has been refuted by Steven Speray, Novus Ordo Watch, And Fr Cekada.
I have several posts dealing with R&R. See my post “The Source Of The Problem” Of 1/22/18 As But one example. You believe in a Church that can give evil and heretics who can be popes. This is NOT Catholicism.
What you perceive as an insult is a sad reality. If you can’t see the absurdity of R&R, you lack logic or are willfully ignorant of the truth.
—-Introibo
To the Salza&Siscoe-phile:
DeleteShow me where I wrote "just Catholics"?
Go tell St. Athanasius that there's no possibility of the Sees being filled with heretics (Arians). While you're at it, perhaps you and the two geniuses can lobby Frank to strip St. Athanasius of his title, "Athanasius Contra Mundum."
Your blog promotes ecclesiavacantism and it is often used to insult and ridicule people who won't subscribe. That is because you are child.
DeleteI could produce a list of the things you believe in that have no basis in Roman Catholicism but I referenced two other sources that pick eccelsiavacantism apart already. Like I said, you can't refute your opponents' arguments or you would have done it. What does Salza being a Mason have to do with this? Refute the mason if you can. Better yet, debate him. I am very sure if you email him and offer him a debate on any given subject he will accept. Well?
“This is because you are child” (sic)
DeleteSo who’s name calling?
I do not insult and ridicule people who disagree. My blog is probably one of the few that allows such open exchange. Occasionally, when personally attacked, I will give them a taste of their own medicine. I’m a Traditionalist but with human failings nevertheless.
You could produce “a list of things [I] believe that have no basis in Roman Catholicism.”
Go ahead and list just three. We’ll see how well they hold up. The fact he’s a Mason (still, I believe) has A LOT TO DO WITH HIS RECOGNIZING BERGOGLIO. If you can’t see that, your powers of discernment are more poor than I imagined.
I never run from a debate, but I don’t make house calls. If Salza contacts me in the comments section, we can set the rules of debate and I will take him on. Send this comment to the hero of mentavacantism and see if he responds.
Btw, the Church is not empty as your neologism implies. It just doesn’t include those Outside the One True Church, such as the Vatican II sect.
—-Introibo
"That is because you are child [sic]."
DeleteYou have the temerity to call Introibo a child? How dare you! But seeing that you did, your derring-do simply cannot go unrewarded! Here is your reward.
Salza & Siscoe refer to Mario Derksen of Novus Ordo Watch as Fr. Cekada's "disciple." This is done to make Fr. Cekada look like a cult leader and to lessen Mr. Derksen as merely one of his followers (Mr. Derksen cooperates with Fr. Cekada, but he's certainly not a "disciple" of Fr. Cekada). So again, after Fr. Cekada has been ridiculed (without foundation), Mr. Derksen is meant to be lessened in the eyes of their readers because he is merely a follower of the discredited Cekada. It's called "psychologically chipping away" at your opponents. (It's like me referring to the Anonymous S&S fan as S&S's "winged monkey.") And that's why they took a photo taken of Mr. Derksen when he was around 18 years old (I'd say he's now in his late 30s) and plastered it on their website. It's meant to convey that Mr. Derksen is a "young pup" who knows nothing and therefore can't be trusted. He has all the enthusiasm of youth, but no deep knowledge like S&S. They went out of their way to sift through Fr. Cekada's YouTube's to select frames showing the most unflattering pictures of him they could possibly find, and then posted them on their website. And they are continually declaring themselves the "winners" of the debate, saying others have "lost" - exhibiting a general self-congratulatory, obnoxious, infantile manner. It's like a child saying, "Mommy! Mommy! I won! I won! - even if I DO SAY SO MYSELF!"
As Introibo pointed out, THEY HAVE BEEN REFUTED. And going about declaring themselves the "winners" and saying no one has refuted them is childish in the extreme. And childishly doing all the above does not translate to reality.
They've been refuted. They're extremely boring. They're prolix windbags and life goes on.
The FACT that they resort to all these tactics shows they are not at all confident in their case against sedevacantism, so-called.
You are ranting because you can't refute them. For example s & s produce several informative pieces that each refute the ecclesiavacantists and they include teachings from canonists, theologians and others such as Billot, Bellarmine, Suarez, John of St. Thomas, Billuart, Layman, . Each of these articles offers evidence that contradict what Sedevacantists have always believed and taught as true. I haven't seen a convincing refutation. Go ahead and debate them article by article.
Delete@ Anon 1:56
DeleteThat evidence was shot down by Fr Cekada, Mario Derksen and Steven Speray. I already said I’m willing to debate Salza, all he has to do is challenge me here via the comments so we can agree as to the rules.
You claimed there were a list of things I believe that have nothing to do to Roman Catholicism. I asked for merely three examples to see if your accusations hold up.
I’m still waiting. Surely you can name three from your long list!! Can’t you?
—-Introibo
Anon @ 1:56 pm
DeleteThat's not going to work, squire. I've just revealed the methods of your idols, S&S. No answer to the charges, huh? You're wise not to start flapping your gums in their defense. No one wants to look silly defending the indefensible. Which begs the question: Why are you defending S&S's flawed thesis?
I was highlighting how very silly you were to call Introibo a child. We've subsequently learned who the *real* L'enfant terribles are.
I'm not wasting my time going over old ground to refute (AGAIN) two of the most discredited, flawed characters ever to emerge from the R&R School-of-No-Theology.
I've already pointed you to:
http://tradcath.proboards.com/board/40/true-false-pope-refutation-page
You go there, or ask Salza and Siscoe to go there, and refute "Nazianzen," then let us know so we can have a look.
In the meantime, quit pestering us like a 4 year child wanting a box of Crackerjacks.
Ok, I'll give you 4. the Catholic Church has Four Marks which define her and Ecclesiavacantists have.... ZERO. That is why you are appropriately called Ecclesiavacantists. You can call yourselves Catholics but that alone is sufficient to disprove the Ecclesiavacantists as a non-Catholic sect. I am not Salza but maybe I will send him your invitation to debate.
DeleteThank you for making it so easy for me to show the false Vatican II sect for the Satanic non-Catholic religion it really is by using the Four Marks!
DeleteThe Church is ONE, HOLY, CATHOLIC, and APOSTOLIC. One of your own sect's priests, Fr. Michael Oswalt, left the Vatican II diocese of Rockford, Ill and became a validly ordained priest by a sede bishop precisely because the FOUR MARKS ARE LACKING IN THE VATICAN II SECT!!
I quote from Father's letter to his Vatican II sect "bishop" as to why he was leaving:
The new religion is not holy because of (1) its public profession and promulgation of heresy with regard to both faith and morals; (2) its false and evil disciplines; (3) the grave sins against the First Commandment which it condones and promotes in the name of ecumenism.
The new religion is not one, because the unity of faith has been completely destroyed in it. It has lost its unity of faith with the previous ages of the Church, since it has broken away from the ancient doctrines. It has, furthermore no unity of faith within itself. Indeed every doctrinal aberration is permitted. The only doctrinal sin after Vatican II is to adhere to the Catholic Faith as the one, true Faith.
The new religion is not catholic, or universal, since without unity of doctrine, without consistency with the past, catholicity is impossible. For catholicity is nothing else than to be one thing, i.e., one faith, one discipline, and one worship, applied to all places and times in the world. But I have already pointed out the break with the past in so many ways, as well as the interior doctrinal, disciplinary, and liturgical chaos which currently exists in the new religion. There is, therefore, no mark of catholicity.
Finally, there is no apostolicity. The Vatican II religion has dissolved the bonds of unity with the apostles in doctrine, worship and discipline. It has broken the line of apostolic succession by the invalid consecration of bishops. It has altered the Apostolic constitution of the Catholic Church by altering the notion and role of the Roman Pontiff.
In short, the new religion is nothing but a non-Catholic sect, just one of so many which have risen up in the past two thousand years in an attempt to alter the Church of Christ.
(Continued below)
That says it all about the Vatican II sect! The fact that we are in a state of extended sedevacante in NO WAY IMPEDES THE FOUR MARKS!
DeleteAccording to theologian Dorsch, "The Church therefore is a society that is essentially monarchical. But this does not prevent the Church, for a short time after the death of a pope, OR EVEN FOR MANY YEARS, from remaining deprived of her head. [vel etiam per plures annos capite suo destituta manet]. Her monarchical form also remains intact in this state.…
Thus the Church is then indeed a headless body.… Her monarchical form of government remains, though then in a different way — that is, it remains incomplete and to be completed. The ordering of the whole to submission to her Primate is present, even though actual submission is not…
For this reason, the See of Rome is rightly said to remain after the person sitting in it has died — for the See of Rome consists essentially in the rights of the Primate.
These rights are an essential and necessary element of the Church. With them, moreover, the Primacy then continues, at least morally. The perennial physical presence of the person of the head, however, [perennitas autem physica personis principis] is not so strictly necessary." (de Ecclesia 2:196–7; Emphasis mine)
Second, according to theologian Salaverri, instead of being a "primary foundation… without which the Church could not exist," the pope is a "secondary foundation," "ministerial," who exercises his power as someone else’s (Christ’s) representative. (See De Ecclesia 1:448)
The Church exists in an altered yet still perfect state. The fact that sedevacantists can not agree on everything is to be expected in a long absence of a pope--yet we agree on fundamentals of faith.
How do you explain the doctrinal mayhem in your sect WITH A "POPE"? There are "traditional type" members, the "conservative" members, and the "liberal" members. Should YOU BE IN UNITY?
Praying for your conversion, and reminding you that Salza goes great with Mexican cuisine, but lousy with theology.
Cross those four items off your lists of my alleged "errors."
---Introibo
Introibo - Didn’t realize my asking an off topic question regarding the R&R would lead to a war. My apologizes.
DeleteDon’t apologize. This blog is not limited in scope. Your question served to help clarify the Sedevacantist position for many readers, I’m sure!
DeleteGod Bless,
—-Introibo
Even if everything Fr. Oswald wrote were true that does not grant that the Ecclesiavacantists have the Four Marks. They do not. That is why the Sedevacantists have been given the epithet "Ecclesiavacantists." Keep in mind that without the 4 Marks there follows other attributes that the true Church must have.
DeleteDorsch shows the Church has everything it needs in sedevacante. You have yet to prove the Four Marks are missing, and the Church’s greatest theologians have spoken to the issue.
DeleteIf everything Fr Oswalt was true (and it is) you find yourself with no Church, just a Vatican II sect. However, people like yourself think a “pope” can say “there is no Catholic God,” Proselytism is nonsense, and atheists can go to Heaven.
That is why you have been given the epithet mentavacantists.
—-Introibo
Introibo - Please try to do this in a clinical manner. By all means, take pleasure in your work, but it won't do your reputation any good if you're seen to be unnecessarily torturing a Salzarian Mentavacantist. :)
DeleteDorcsh shows the Church has everything because he is referring to Sede Vacante. This is irrelevant to you because you are an Ecclesia Vacantist. Do you have a better "go-to" quote which explains Ecclesia-Vacantism and the disappearance of the Catholic Church?
DeleteI’ll try to make this simple enough so even you can understand:
Delete1. We are in a state of prolonged sedevacante.
2. Theologians such as Dorsch, Salaverri, and O’Reilley make it clear that such a state can happen and none of the Four Marks or other Divine attributes cease, nor does the Church “disappear.”
3. You seem to claim that your neologism means something other than a prolonged state of Sedevacantism. How so? What theologians teach about “ecclesiavacatism” and how it differs from a long interregnum (Sedevacantism) between popes.
4. Therefore, Traditionalists (sede) are the remnant Church.
The falsity of your sect is proven by:
The heteropraxis of the Vatican II religion — that is, the confirmation of the heretical nature of Vatican II by the common observances and practices of the Vatican II religion, whether officially sanctioned and practiced by its hierarchy, or merely approved by silence on a universal level. That Vatican II did indeed inject a new and false religion into the institutions of the Catholic Church can been seen from the years of abominable practices.
These include:
sins against the First Commandment of God in the form of ecumenical services of all kinds;
pastoral and liturgical practices which implicitly condone homosexual sins;
weird and profane liturgical aberrations, at times using indecently dressed girls and/or rites which are derived from paganism;
the destruction of the Sacrament of Matrimony by indiscriminate granting of annulments, and for false reasons
the implicit, or sometimes explicit, condoning of artificial birth control;
the reign of heresy in Catholic seminaries, universities, and parochial schools;
the substantial alteration of the Sacrament of Extreme Unction by conferring it upon those who are not in proximate danger of death;
the practice of communion in the hand, with the result that what purports to be the Body and Blood of Christ is many times treated in a gravely sacrilegious manner. (See Fr Oswalt’s letter).
The Four Marks and the True Faith have indeed disappeared from your sect.
—-Introibo
#1: Eitehr you don't understand what Sede Vacante even means or you are deluded.
Delete#2 The theologians do understand. You are confused.
#3 It is not my neologism but it fits your sect perfectly so I use it. Sedevacantism = Ecclesiavacantism = defected church.
#4 Sedevacantists / Ecclesiavacantists cannot be the remnant church because they do not have the marks or attributes of the Church.
"The Four Marks and the True Faith have indeed disappeared from your sect."
YOUR SECT NEVER HAD THEM.
I will translate the above responses from anonymous @ 1:12
Delete1. Translation:”Introibo I cannot supply the alleged correct definition of sedevacante, because I’m a Saiza sychophant and I’ll call you deluded instead.”
2. Translation: “I cannot refute Dorsch, O’Reilley, or Salaverri. I’ll just pretend they agree with me and you don’t understand. Johnny says that’s how big time tax attorneys argue and I want to be just like him someday—Masonic apron and all!”
3. Translation: “I cannot explain how Dorsch, et el, fall into the equation. I’ll just make another statement with nothing to back it up. Johnny Salza would be so proud of me right now!”
4. Translation: “once more, I ignore the teachings of the Church’s theologians. “
Translation to last sentence: “I enjoy making empty assertions without reasons or evidence to back them up. I’m a Johnny Salza MENTAVACANTIST. My mind is empty so please don’t try to fill it up with bothersome facts!!”
Over and out!
—-Introibo
Introibo --- This is loosely related to this week's topic insofar it being a controversial form of entertainment.
ReplyDeleteHave you heard of the game "Cards Against Humanity for Horrible People"? What are your thoughts?
Thanks
Yes, I know of the game. To make it simple, you have to fill-in-the-blank with cards. One might say, “God created (blank) and thought it was good.” Possible answers include homosexuality, and Nazi concentration camps.
DeleteThe game (if you can call it that) is teeming with blasphemy, vulgarity, racism, and sexual perversion. It is indeed, “a game for horrible people” as it advertised. It desensitizes you to evil and makes everything ok as long as it’s done in the name of “fun.” It reminds me of the detestable Howard Stern who is vulgar and blasphemous, yet does it under the guise of “fun.” Real fun is no sin and real sin is no fun.
Anyone who thinks making sexual innuendos about Our Lord And Our Lady is “fun” or “funny,” should stop calling themselves “Traditionalists” or “Catholic” or “Christians.”
—-Introibo
Introibo - Thank you for your prompt reply. I had never heard about it until John Horvat II (I'm not a follower or connected in any way. I merely receive their mass emails) recently sent me a petition (online) to sign against it being retailed in a large chain store (I can't remember which one).
ReplyDeleteYou did an excellent critique of the game, exposing its perverse nature in short order.
All the best.