There is a movement by some, who are disgusted by the Vatican II sect, to join the Eastern Orthodox. The appeal is understandable. They have retained the beautiful Divine Liturgy of the East, they have retained all seven sacraments with a reverence for the sacred, and they are not plagued by the rampant sodomite/pedophilia scandal emanating from Modernist Rome. Now, there are even some who openly proselytize for the Orthodox. They talk about how they have stability and do not fight among themselves, unlike Traditionalists. They have "no use" for a pope either, and did you know that popes and Councils have contradicted each other prior to Vatican II? The Orthodox (noun) are truly orthodox (adjective)---so these apologists claim.
Time for a serious reality check. Often the Eastern Orthodox will be incorrectly described as "schismatic." They do not merely refuse to submit to the Roman Pontiff as schismatics, they are heretics as they deny at least three dogmas of Divine and Catholic Faith. They deny:
- that the Holy Ghost proceeds from BOTH God the Father and God the Son (hence the refusal to use the "Filioque" in the Creed; i.e., "and the Son.")
- the Immaculate Conception of the Most Blessed Virgin Mary (defined December 8, 1854 by Pope Pius IX)
- the Primacy and Infallibility of the Roman Pontiff (as decreed by the Vatican Council on July 18, 1870)
There are other problems as well, but those are the most serious. Let it first be noted that Traditionalists do NOT "deny the pope." We deny that the post-Vatican II "popes" are, in fact, the pope because they are notorious and contumacious heretics. A heretic cannot be pope. The papacy will endure until the end of the world but we don't need to have an actual man filling the position at all times. According to theologian Dorsch:
“The Church therefore is a society that is essentially monarchical. But this does not prevent the Church, for a short time after the death of a pope, or even for many years, from remaining deprived of her head. [vel etiam per plures annos capite suo destituta manet]. Her monarchical form also remains intact in this state.…
“Thus the Church is then indeed a headless body.… Her monarchical form of government remains, though then in a different way — that is, it remains incomplete and to be completed. The ordering of the whole to submission to her Primate is present, even though actual submission is not…
“For this reason, the See of Rome is rightly said to remain after the person sitting in it has died — for the See of Rome consists essentially in the rights of the Primate.
“These rights are an essential and necessary element of the Church. With them, moreover, the Primacy then continues, at least morally. The perennial physical presence of the person of the head, however, [perennitas autem physica personis principis] is not so strictly necessary.” (de Ecclesia 2:196–7)
Also, according to theologian Salaverri, instead of being a “primary foundation… without which the Church could not exist,” the pope is a “secondary foundation,” “ministerial,” who exercises his power as someone else’s (Christ’s) representative. (See De Ecclesia 1:448)
Traditionalists are either sedevacantists or sedeprivationists; both of whom deny that Jorge Bergoglio (Francis) is a true pope, but neither deny the institution of the papacy as defined by the Church's own approved pre-Vatican II theologians. As to Traditionalists having disputes (as to sedevacantism, sedeprivationism, "recognize and resist" of the pseudo-Traditionalist SSPX, etc) this is to be expected because when "the Shepard is struck, the sheep will scatter" (See Zechariah 13:7). For the record, I do not consider conclavists (those who believe they can just go out and "elect" a so-called "pope") to be Traditionalists. They adhere formally to a false pope, the same as members of the Vatican II sect.
This post will sketch the controversy surrounding the "Filioque" which the modern day Orthodox proselytizers use to batter Traditionalists. This is a condensation of the Church's Teaching as expounded by theologian Pohle.
1. Origin of the Heresy
When the Macedonian heretics declared the Holy Ghost to be a creature of the Logos-Son, the Second Ecumenical Council (Constantinople I--381 A.D.), in order to safeguard the dogma of His Divinity, thought it was sufficient to affirm His Consubstantiality (of the same substance) with God the Father in the phrase "Qui ex Patre procedit" ("Who proceeds from the Father"). Sometime after the Council, certain heretics came to believe that "ex Patre" ("from the Father") meant "Ex solo Patre" (from the Father alone"). It was left to the heretical Patriarch of Constantinople, Photius, to raise the banner against the Church for inserting the word "Filioque" into the Nicean Creed. A great council (non-ecumenical) was held in Constantinople in 879 A.D. which was attended by 380 bishops of the East and formally pronounced sentence of anathema against all who should add to, or take from, the Creed of Nicea.
Though the Ecumenical Council of Chalcedon (451 A.D.) had forbidden the reception into the Creed of "any other Faith" it can only have meant heterodox additions. The First Council of Constantinople would add many clauses expanding the original Nicene Creed, including clauses that state the Holy Ghost "proceeded from the Father" (as explained above), and "I believe in One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church." Thus history proves there was no absolute ban on doctrinal clarifications considered necessary to combat serious errors. I find it supremely ironic that the Latin text of the Creed with "Filioque" has retained "Theon ek Theon" ("God from God") while the Greek text used by the Eastern Orthodox has eliminated those words from the very Creed they claim cannot have ANY change! They stand condemned by their own invented principle!
2. Scriptural Argument
Sacred Scripture expressly mentions only the procession of the Holy Ghost from the Father. (See St. John 15:26) However, the Procession of the Holy Ghost from the Son can be proved by a three-fold argument from Biblical texts.
- In the New Testament, the Holy Ghost is not only represented as "the Spirit of the Father," but also as "the Spirit of the Son." (See Galatians 4:6, Romans 8:9, Phil. 1:19, I Peter 1:11). The Orthodox admit the only reason why the Holy Ghost can be called "the Spirit of the Father" (See St. Matt. 10:20) is because He proceeds from the Father. If this be true, it must be a pari concluded that He can be called "the Spirit of the Son" because He also proceeds from the Son. This conclusion is fortified by Christ being called "the Son of the Father" (Filius Dei) which evidently expresses a procession One from the Other.
- A stronger argument can be drawn from what is known as the "Mission" of the Holy Ghost. Missio, in the abstract sense, signifies "the procession of one from another by virtue of some principle and for the purpose of accomplishing some task." There are three essential notes of any mission, human or Divine: (1.) A real distinction between the sender and the one sent, for no being can send itself (2.) A certain dependency of the "sent" in regards to the "sender." (3.) A relation on the part of the "sent" to some place or effect. In the Divinity any influence of the "Sender" on the "Sent" --other than by relation of origin, would be repugnant to the Essense of the Triune God. The eternal Procession of one Divine Person from another may be called "Internal Mission" and the Temporal Mission is external and merely reflects the Internal. In Scripture, the Father is always represented as "sending" but never as "sent." The Son is both "sent" and "sending." The Holy Ghost is only "sent" and never "sending." The Son is sent by the Father, because the Son is begotten by the Father, not the Father by the Son; similarly, we read that the Holy Ghost is sent by the Father and the Son, because He proceeds from both the Father and the Son. (See St. John 14:16, St. John 15:26, and St. John 16:7--See also theologian Franzelin, De Deo Trino, thesis 33).
- In St. John 16:13 sqq, it is said that the Holy Ghost "hears" and "receives" His knowledge of the future from Christ. Now, one Divine Person can "hear" and "receive" from another only in so far as He does not, like the Father, possess His knowledge, and consequently His essence, from Himself, but receives it by way of of essential, eternal communication. Hence, just as Christ "hears" and "learns" from His Father only in so far as His Divine Nature with all the attributes of omnipotence, omniscience, etc, are communicated to Him by His eternal Generation from the Father; so, too, the Holy Ghost "hears" and "receives" from the Son only in the sense that all His knowledge and His whole Essence are derived through origination from Christ. Consequently, the Holy Ghost proceeds from the Son as well as from the Father.
2. Patristic Argument
The Eastern Orthodox freely admit that the Latin Fathers unanimously teach the procession of the Holy Ghost from the Father and the Son. In making this admission, they condemn themselves. It is absurd to imagine that the Latin Church, which for eight centuries together with the East formed the One True Church of Christ, should have harbored and taught so disgraceful a heresy during all that time!
In summation, do not be lead astray by those heretics calling themselves "Orthodox." Just as you can call an unborn baby a "product of conception," and it does not detract from his/her humanity, you can likewise call heresy "Orthodox," but it makes those who adhere to it heretics nonetheless.
Orthodoxy or Death!
ReplyDeleteI'm not really sure what the above comment means. If a Traditionalist is trying to be funny and suggest we must be orthodox (adjective) or die eternal death in Hell, then I agree. In any other sense it becomes offensive and stupid. Those comments will be deleted
Delete--Introibo
Introibo, pretty late, but "Orthodoxy or Death!" is a common quote used by the Eastern Orthodox
Delete@anon6:54
DeleteYes, after this post, I researched it.
—-Introibo
Is this an example of the "orthodox" promotion to which you refer?
ReplyDeletehttp://srocco.org/CopticRite/
Yes. One of many such examples I've seen.
DeleteDid you mean to key in 'not' in the third paragraph?
ReplyDelete"...are, in fact, not the pope..."
No. Please read the sentence again:
Delete" We deny that the post-Vatican II "popes" are, in fact, the pope because they are notorious and contumacious heretics. " We deny deny that they are the pope. To deny that they are NOT the pope would be a double negative, thereby claiming that we acknowledge they (post-Vat 2 heretics) are pope
Yes, thank you, quite right.
DeleteCancel my correction. I just read the sentence more carefully.
ReplyDeleteSo noted, and thanks :-)
DeleteThe clarity in your report is so helpful to me since I thought that the Eastern Orthodox were only schismatics all this time. I have been woefully uninformed. I came across Brother Nathanael You Tube videos and so I watched several of them. He is with the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia living in Colorado. I was mostly interested in his videos and articles about his experiences growing up Jewish and why he converted. Recently, I chatted with an Orthodox monastic in a grocery store here in Washington State where there are few Eastern Orthodox; his monastery was located on one of the islands in Puget Sound. As well, I talked to a fellow a couple of weeks ago who was considering precisely what the article opened with: he was thinking about bailing the N.O. and joining a Eastern Orthodox and I had little to say. I would now though after having read this article. Russia has also been in the news lately and frequently brought the question of understanding the Eastern Orthodox to my mind. As far as I can tell, the Novus Ordo cares not about Orthodox denials (likely ecumenism at work); haven't I seen several of the Orthodox at the Vatican over the last several years?
ReplyDeleteYes. The Orthodox along with every other false religion has been at the Modernist Vatican since V2. Only the One True Faith is kept out!!
DeleteYou will be in my prayers.
God bless
--Introibo
Thank you. We are very blessed in Seattle to have a sede vacantist Roman Catholic Chapel.
DeleteThe chaos caused by Pope Francis and his inner circle is proof that Roman Catholics have effectively made an idol out of the Papacy. If Tradition was valued as equal to or greater than the Pope, then his ridiculous statements would not be so dissapointing and shocking.
ReplyDeleteYou (unwittingly) hit the nail on the head. Members of the Vatican 2 sect are not Roman Catholic. Traditionalists are what's left of the RC Church. Only those who believe (wrongly) that Francis is pope would be shocked and disappointed.
DeleteThere is a misunderstanding about the role of the papacy which was instituted by the historical Person if Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. The idea that a heretic can be pope is one such misunderstanding. Your statement regarding Tradition as equal to the pope is also wrongheaded (to be charitable). Sacred Scriputure and Sacred Tradition comprise the two sources of revelation which ended with the death if St. John the Apostle in 100 AD. The papacy ensures there is an infallible guide to properly interpret revelation. We are now without a pope since the death of Pope Pius XII in 1958.
Thanks for this article. Do you know about their claims of the Rock being Peter's faith and not himself and his successors. I see a lot of them saying St. Augustine supported that interpretation. Also, their claim that since St. Peter was bishop of Antioch then why do we say Rome is special. I see a lot of them bring that up.
ReplyDeleteRead my responses below, the orthodox can't defend the facts.The Catholic Church is the one true Church.
DeleteYou are ignorant of basic history. Rome was the fist protestant church, tearing the One Church into two, Latin and Orthodox.
ReplyDeleteFlioque, Infallibility and Assumption were later additions to the Faith of the Apostles.
The dogmas you mentioned had been believed since the Apostles. They were only made more explicit as time went by. It is you who are ignorant of theology, as the history and theology of the Filioque above clearly demonstrates.
DeleteIt's sad that the orthodox aren't honest and tell people they reunited with the Catholic Church circa council of Florence.If they had such problems with the true catholic church, why would their ancestors reunite with us catholics 200 years after 1054?
ReplyDeleteDon't forget how "orthodox held onto their traditions during communism but the catholics have imploded due to Vatican 2."Tell that to the Catholic priests shot dead behind the iron curtain whole kgb and nkvd agents posed as orthodox priest's while celebrating the divine liturgy of St.John Chrysostom (a Catholic himself) The Catholic Church is alive and well nor did we lose our traditions.The Vatican 2 sect is the one in communion with the orthodox! (See Assisi 1,2, and 3)
ReplyDeleteWhile the Catholic Church has covered many countries (south and North America, Some countries on Asia, Africa and Eastern and Western Europe), the "orthodox" stay in eastern Europe and there are some of them in the us.
ReplyDeleteThere are also some in Asia, though very very few
Delete