Monday, August 1, 2022

Contending For The Faith---Part 6

 


In St. Jude 1:3, we read, "Dearly beloved, taking all care to write unto you concerning your common salvation, I was under a necessity to write unto you: to beseech you to contend earnestly for the faith once delivered to the saints." [Emphasis mine]. Contending For The Faith is a series of posts dedicated to apologetics (i.e.,  the intellectual defense of the truth of the Traditional Catholic Faith) to be published the first Monday of each month.  This is the next installment.

Sadly, in this time of Great Apostasy, the faith is under attack like never before, and many Traditionalists don't know their faith well enough to defend it. Remember the words of our first pope, "But in your hearts revere Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect..." (1Peter 3:16). There are five (5) categories of attacks that will be dealt with in these posts. Attacks against:
  • The existence and attributes of God
  • The truth of the One True Church established by Christ for the salvation of all 
  • The truth of a particular dogma or doctrine of the Church
  • The truth of Catholic moral teaching
  • The truth of the sedevacantist position as the only Catholic solution to what has happened since Vatican II 
In addition, controversial topics touching on the Faith will sometimes be featured, so that the problem and possible solutions may be better understood. If anyone had suggestions for topics that would fall into any of these categories, you may post them in the comments. I cannot guarantee a post on each one, but each will be carefully considered.
The Attack on Religious Belief
Catholic countries are no more. We live in an increasingly secular world. Due to the Modernism of Vatican II (and the sect it spawned), "faith" is seen as more or less "fuzzy feelings" of God's love. (I was literally taught that by one teacher at the V2 sect high school I attended in the early 1980s). It will not be uncommon for you to meet someone who discovers your faith and will ask you such questions as "How can you believe in such nonsense you can't prove?" or "What evidence do you have for those silly beliefs?" When you have a sect that teaches all religions are more or less good and lead to Heaven, nothing is seen as true or false, good or bad. It's just "true for me" or "true for you." Relativism reigns supreme and apologetics and reasons for the faith were jettisoned, because it really doesn't matter anyway.

In this post, I hope to demonstrate that there is good evidence to know that God exists and no equally good reasons to think that atheism is true. As a result, the rational person has nothing to fear in embracing the God of the universe, Who came down from Heaven and died for us. He established One True Church to which all must belong in order to be saved.

 Attack #1: Faith is "pretending to know something" or "having no evidence."
In a YouTube video, Neil De Grasse Tyson makes the following statement:

I have no problems if as we prove the origins of things we bump up into the bearded man. If that shows up, we’re good to go. Okay. Not a problem. There’s just no evidence of it. And this is why religions are called faiths, collectively: Because you believe something in the absence of evidence. That’s what it is. That’s why it’s called faith. Otherwise we would call all religions evidence! But we don’t for exactly that reason. (See youtube.com/watch?v=I0nXG02tpDw).

The first thing I would do is ask Dr. Tyson, “What do you mean by faith and how did you come to that definition?” Those pushing this idea about faith frequently characterize it in one of the following ways:

• Belief without sufficient evidence 
• Belief in spite of contrary evidence
• Pretending to know what you don’t really know
• Just believing something without questioning it

I would ask Tyson to consider an alternate definition. According to St. Paul, "Faith is the substance of things to be hoped for, the evidence of things that appear not." (See Hebrews 11:1; Emphasis mine).From the Dogmatic Constitution on the Catholic Faith from the Vatican Council of 1870:

Canon 1. If anyone says that the one, true God, our creator and lord, cannot be known with certainty from the things that have been made, by the natural light of human reason: let him be anathema.

Therefore, faith in Traditional Catholicism does not require ignoring evidence, but rather it is normative for faith to be accompanied by evidence, that is, motives of credibility. The Vatican Council's Constitution states further:

But the Catholic Church professes that this faith, which is the beginning of human salvation, is a supernatural virtue by which we, with the aid and inspiration of the grace of God, believe that the things revealed by him are true, not because the intrinsic truth of the revealed things has been perceived by the natural light of reason, but because of the authority of God himself who reveals them, who can neither deceive nor be deceived.

So God helps us and provides grace at the level of our wills to make our faith firm and lasting. We have the Five Proofs of Aquinas on the existence of God. We have the miracles and prophesies fulfilled in the Bible concerning Jesus Christ, especially His physical Resurrection from the dead. The Catholic Church is the One True Church He founded. Of course, the person attacking faith will deny all of this because he does not believe. However, that is not the point. Tyson and his ilk put up a defective definition of faith and knock down a strawman of their own making. 

Clearly, Tyson, as an atheist scientist, thinks that physical evidence is the only kind of evidence that counts. This is incorrect. At the beginning of the video clip, Tyson talks about evil in the world. How can empirical science prove something to be good or evil? Moreover, in a world without God, there can be no objective moral values. To have an objective moral value means, e.g., even if the Nazis won WWII and brainwashed everyone into believing that the systematic killing of people they considered "undesirable" was good--it would still be wrong independently of what anyone thinks. Yet, Tyson can only say that the systematic killing of people is wrong in his opinion. The Nazis hold a different opinion. The Traditionalist can point to the Ten Commandments, an expression of the attributes of God's external and eternal Nature, against which things are known to be right or wrong. 

Ironically, science cannot prove the existence of the external world, upon which its very endeavor depends. How does Tyson know he's not in a computer simulation like the movie The Matrix? Science presupposes and cannot prove the external world. Faith is having plenty of evidence. When you have a misconception about what faith is, only then do you think there is no evidence.

Attack #2: Faith as a "crutch" for the weak, and "wishful thinking" in the face of death.
The "professional wrestler" Jesse Ventura was elected Governor of Minnesota in 1998. He served for one term (1999-2003). During an interview with the pornographic rag, Playboy magazine, Ventura had this to say about faith:

Organized religion is a sham and a crutch for weak-minded people who need strength in numbers. It tells people to go out and stick their noses in other people's business. I live by the golden rule: Treat others as you'd want them to treat you. The religious right wants to tell people how to live.
(See goodreads.com/quotes/116680-organized-religion-is-a-sham-and-a-crutch-for-weak-minded; Emphasis mine). 

Although aimed at "organized religion," people like Ventura will make similar claims such as stating, “Religious faith is a crutch for weak people that don’t know how to deal with the difficulties of life.” If God exists, then he is the crutch we need to lean on in troubled times. Also, Christianity holds that human beings are a fallen race and wounded badly by Original Sin. In such a condition, they need "spiritual medical attention," which makes the metaphor of a crutch appropriate not disparaging. I would ask Ventura, “Isn’t it appropriate for us to have a crutch if we’re part of an injured human race?”

What about the charge that faith is "wishful thinking" in the face of death? If God exists, then it’s true that He could conquer death by providing us with everlasting life. It seems fitting that He would make us aware of His intention to do so.

Theistic philosopher Alvin Plantinga (b. 1932), in his book Knowledge and Christian Belief (2015), distinguishes what he calls de jure objections to theistic belief from de facto objections. De jure objections purport to show that belief in God is in some way defective without necessarily aiming to show the belief is false. De facto objections target the truth of a belief and attempt to show that belief in God is false, and, conversely, that atheism is true. As you can see, unless someone targets the truth of belief in God or a specific Christian belief, the de jure objections do not hold up.

Therefore, labelling Traditionalists as people who have faith because "they are wishful thinkers, afraid of death, and who need a crutch" does nothing to show the object of faith is false or that having this faith is somehow deficient.


Attack #3: "The absence of evidence is evidence of absence."
There are two famous versions of this attack known as "Russell's Teapot," and "Hitchens's razor."

Russell's Teapot is so named after the infamous atheist Bertrand Russell. Russell claims that faith in God is just like faith in a floating teapot in outer space for which we have no evidence. This absence of evidence for God should be taken as evidence of his absence; i.e., He does not exist and faith is futile.

In his paper “Is There a God?”[pgs. 542-548 in The Collected Papers of Bertrand Russell, vol. 11, ed. John G. Slater and Peter Kollner (1997)], he has this to say:

If I were to suggest that between the Earth and Mars there is a china teapot revolving about the sun in an elliptical orbit, nobody would be able to disprove my assertion provided I were careful to add that the teapot is too small to be revealed even by our most powerful telescopes. But if I were to go on to say that, since my assertion cannot be disproved, it is an intolerable presumption on the part of human reason to doubt it, I should rightly be thought to be talking nonsense. If, however, the existence of such a teapot were affirmed in ancient books, taught as the sacred truth every Sunday, and instilled into the minds of children at school, hesitation to believe in its existence would become a mark of eccentricity and entitle the doubter to the attentions of the psychiatrist in an enlightened age or of the Inquisitor in an earlier time.

Russell’s point is twofold. First, just because an assertion cannot be disproved, that is no good reason to think it is true. Second, that comprehensive inculturation could lead to belief in an interplanetary teapot just as it leads to belief in God. As to his claim that "because an assertion cannot be disproved, that is no good reason to think it is true," there is evidence of God's existence--proof actually, as has been explained already. As far as inculturation is concerned, I once wrote that Russell and his like-minded individuals should be asked, "Do you believe that women should have equal rights with men?" Of course, he will respond "Yes." (If they start with the "What about trans-women" nonsense, change the question to "Do you believe in equal rights for LGTBQIA+ people?") Then say, "Well you only believe in that because you live in America. If you were living in Saudi Arabia, you'd be a Moslem and would be against equal rights for women and homosexuals, right?" They will protest that they believe in equal rights  not only because of where they live and how they were raised, but because they studied the issue and came to this conclusion. Then flip it on them: "Well that could also be equally true in matters of religion."

This anti-religious statement claiming that circumstances determine religion is based on what is called the genetic fallacy in logic. The fallacy says that a proposition is wrong (or correct) based on where the idea originated. A claim is ignored in favor of attacking or exalting its source. 2+2=4 is true and doesn't become false because Stalin said it. 2+2=5 is wrong, even if St. Francis of Assisi said it. 

Hitchens's Razor is named after one of the so-called "Four Horsemen of the New Atheism," the late Christopher Hitchens (d. 2011). His stated "razor" is a principle in which he claims "what can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence." Once more, there are proofs of God's existence, so his vaunted "razor" does not apply. Hitchens's Razor is basically another way of saying that "the absence of evidence is evidence of absence." This rule will only apply if two conditions are met:

1. The person has thoroughly searched for evidence in all the appropriate areas. 
2. Reasonable persons would expect to have more evidence than they actually do, in a given case.

If someone asked me, "Is there an elephant in your backyard?" I would first look to see if there were an elephant here in my NYC yard. If I don't see one, I look for the big footprints it would leave. I would check the news for reports of a missing elephant from the Bronx Zoo. I would ask my neighbors if they heard or saw any such creature. I would check with my local police precinct and fire department to see if any such sighting was reported. If nothing came back affirming an elephant, the absence of evidence would be evidence of absence. Both conditions were met: evidence was searched for in the appropriate areas and what more evidence could you reasonably expect? 

Now, suppose someone asked me, "Is there a flea in your backyard?" Looking in my yard, searching for footprints, asking my neighbors, checking the news, and asking the police/fire departments wouldn't prove anything. Here, the absence of evidence is NOT evidence of absence. It does not meet the two criteria. 

In the case of the existence of God, absence of evidence is evidence of absence if and only if:

1. The skeptic has fully canvassed the appropriate areas in philosophy and history. He has carefully inspected the arguments for God and shown why they fail. 

2. We would expect to have more evidence than we do if, in fact, God exists.

Don't expect them to be able to get past #1! 

Conclusion
The attack on religious belief has never been greater. We must always be prepared to give a defense for our faith. As the great St. Joan of Arc said, “One life is all we have and we live it as we believe in living it. But to sacrifice what you are and to live without belief, that is a fate more terrible than dying.”


37 comments:

  1. The "heavyweights" of atheism have really weak arguments to demonstrate their disbelief. But they manage to impress ordinary people because of their status as scientists or philosophers. They want us to take their word for it, without thinking... isn't it ironic ? I believe in the Word of God because He is the Truth itself but the word of the "prophets" of atheism is only wind. They want us to believe that the world was made by itself by the sole intervention of natural forces, and that man descended from monkeys. I stopped being interested in science because, although it tells us how the world works, it hasn't made humans morally better. Isn't contraception a product of science ? And what resulted ? Immorality and abortion. While we send telescopes into orbit and robots to Mars, people live as if God doesn't exist. They do what they want, when they want and with whom they want. The rise of science made people proud and made them believe that they no longer needed God and religion. It is surely a sign of the current Great Apostasy.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Simon,
      The arguments of atheism are incredibly weak, especially when one understands the Faith!!

      God Bless,

      ---Introibo

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    2. Great comment, Simon. Thank you. Science hasn't made humans morally better. The media and educational system want to revise history as well as focus on advances in entertainment, creature comforts, longevity, etc., vs any advancements in morals. "The "dark" ages were horrible." "Isn't it great we don't live under the rule of kings anymore?" "Thank goodness we are 'enlightened' now."
      -S.T.

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  2. Thanks for this interesting article.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Jacinto,
      I'm glad you liked it, my friend! There will be a follow-up on next month's 'Contending For The Faith."

      God Bless,

      ---Introibo

      Delete
  3. “I hope to demonstrate that there is good evidence to know that God exists and no equally good reasons to think that atheism is true.”

    The article does a fair job at disproving a few attacks on a belief in the existence of God by refuting the grounds upon which those attacks rest; but the article does not demonstrate any evidence for the existence of God, but only mentions a few that believers believe are evidenced for God. Thus, the author does not demonstrate that there is good evidence to know that God exists, because the article only shows reasons for why one should think the atheistic attacks are very good.

    Perhaps in the next contending for the Faith series, the author could put forth evidence to demonstrate God’s existence, since that seems to be far more apologetically powerful than merely refuting the opponent’s arguments. In classical rhetoric this is called “confirmatio,” whereby the speaker provides proofs for his thesis.

    A good attempt, nevertheless, but it needs confirmation to be a rounded defense of the faith. Thank you for writing it.

    (Your friend the home-aloner, Robert Robbins, over at CatholicEclipsed.com)

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Books on Apologetics:
      https://catholicarchivist2.blogspot.com/search/label/Apologetics
      - The Catholic Archivist

      Delete
    2. Robert,
      I agree with you that my task needs more done to be fully accomplished. Next month's "Contending For The Faith" will examine one of the arguments/proofs for the existence of God.

      The Catholic Archivist,
      Thank you for the great link to apologetics!

      God Bless you both,

      ---Introibo

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  4. Bishop David Bawden is dying of a cerebral brain hemorrhage.
    1st Priest he Ordained offered him Confession + Extreme Unction.
    Internet commenter told me he hasn't Consecrated 1 of his Priests.

    I learn Bp.Jon Simmons,who conditionally Ordained then Consecrated (NOT sub conditione) Bp.Biarnsen,had valid Utecht Old Catholic & subsequently valid Duarte-Costa line Holy Orders (sub conditione) from 1st Bishop Duarte-Costa himself Consecrated in 1948 or earlier.(Yrs before the elderly Bishop was legally blind)

    Please pray for Bp.Bawden's moral temporal spiritual well being + same for his elderly Mother.
    She's buried her husband,oldest Son,and will bury Bp.Bawden in near future.

    Holy Orders bio is to show he + his Priests are valid. Hopefully,he will awake in Purgatory.

    I do NOT consider him Pope but if all Sedevacantist Sedeprivationist +Resistance-SSPX Bishops hold an imperfect council,Conclave,elect a Pope + cross Ordain/Consecrate each other,his Priests should be allowed to function in the Church.

    Wonder who'll they request Episcopal Consecration from if he's only Ordained his Men
    I think Bp.Biarnsen is deceased but open to + hopefully wrong on that statement.

    God bless -Andrew

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    Replies
    1. Andrew,
      I will definitely pray for David Bawden and his mother. May he repent before death, and no more Kansas false popes.

      I ask all my readers to pray as well for his conversion.

      God Bless,

      ---Introibo

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    2. David Bawden AKA "Pope" Michael has died today Aug. 2nd.

      Lee

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    3. Lee,
      May he have died repentant and in the state of Grace. I ask all to pray for the repose of his soul, and there may not be another "pope" to replace him.

      God Bless,

      ---Introibo

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    4. We need ALL valid traditional Catholic Bishops to hold an imperfect Council and Conclave. Great Western Schism part II.

      Delete
  5. This is off topic, but this was posted recently: https://stevensperay.wordpress.com/2022/08/02/supplied-jurisdiction-for-sedevacantist-clergy-the-problem-with-the-home-alone-position-part-ii/

    I hope any home aloner who reads it, does so carefully.

    Lee

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    Replies
    1. I shall not only read it carefully, but I shall refute it even more carefully.

      Robert

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    2. Lee,
      Excellent work as usual by Steve Speray!

      Robert,
      Go ahead, Steve loves a good debate!

      God Bless,

      ---Introibo

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    3. Robert,

      Before you do, can you at least acknowledge that Baptism is NOT the ONLY sacrament necessary for salvation like you said to me on Novus Ordo Watch?

      To prove my point, here is what the Church teaches from the Council of Trent below:

      “For those who after baptism have fallen into sin, the Sacrament of Penance IS AS NECESSARY UNTO SALVATION as is baptism itself for those who have not yet been regenerated” (Sess. XIV, c. 2).

      Theologian Ludwig Ott says this:

      “The Sacraments are the means appointed by God for the attainment of eternal salvation. THREE OF THEM are in the ordinary way of salvation so necessary, that without their use salvation cannot be attained. Thus, for the individual person, Baptism is necessary in this way and after the commission of a grievous sin, Penance is equally necessary, while for the Church in general, the Sacrament of Holy Orders is necessary. The other Sacraments are necessary in so far as salvation cannot be so easily gained without them.” [1] Ott tells us on p. 332, “All the Sacraments of the New Covenant confer sanctifying grace on the receivers. (De fide.)”

      BTW, these quotes are found in the latest article from Speray's website. What do you say now?

      Lee

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    4. Well, Lee, I’d say that the Sacrament of Penance is not absolutely necessary for salvation when it is not available, just as the Sacrament of Baptism (Baptism by water) is not absolutely necessary for salvation.

      You must understand that when the Church teaches that such and such is necessary, it usually means that it is the ordinary means to attain the end sought for.

      I leave to your contemplation the teachings of the Church below. If you had read your catechism before the Canons of the Council of Trent, you wouldn’t have made this mistake.

      BC 654. We know that baptism of desire or of blood will save us when it is impossible to receive the baptism of water, from Holy Scripture, which teaches that love of God and perfect contrition can secure the remission of sins ; and also that Our Lord promises salvation to those who lay down their life for His sake or for His teaching.

      BC 766. Perfect contrition will obtain pardon for mortal sin without the Sacrament of Penance when we cannot go to confession, but with the perfect contrition we must have the intention of going to confession as soon as possible, if we again have the opportunity.

      Delete
    5. Robert,

      On Novus Ordo Watch in the comment section under the "Essence of Christianity according to Bergoglio" you stated:

      "Baptism is necessary for salvation. Receiving the Holy Eucharist or receiving sacramental absolution is not. True, Pray-at-Home Catholics as well as Sedevacantist clergy invoke necessity outside of danger of death, but only one group (the Pray-at-Home Catholics) do so in reason, because baptism ALONE IS A (emphasis capitalized by me) necessary sacrament, whereas Holy Orders, the Eucharist, Penance, Extreme Unction, Matrimony are not."

      Now you are changing up position saying it's not necessary if it is not available.

      Do you believe in the Council of Trent or the theologian Ott or not?

      Also if Holy Orders are as necessary for salvation, how have the gates of hell not won if there is nobody in the known world left with Holy Orders nor any possible way for you to be sure that they have them?

      Lee

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    6. Lee, I didn’t change my position. You just don’t understand how to make distinctions. I am sorry for that. I don’t think God will judge you harshly because you cannot make distinctions. But He may judge you for not knowing your Catechism and believing it.

      My apologies to you, Introibo, for commenting on a topic unrelated to your very good post against atheists. I look forward to reading more like it. If you will indulge me one more time, I would like to share a link to a refutation written against Steve’s article, for your readers to check out if they are interested.

      https://catholiceclipsed.com/2022/08/03/sedes-know-no-law-nor-apparently-their-catechism-a-refutation-of-steve-sperays-attempt-to-discredit-home-alone/

      Robert

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    7. Robert,

      You do exactly what every person does when they know they are wrong and that is fail to answer a simple question.

      This means you reject the Council of Trent which states that the sacrament of penance is as necessary for salvation as the sacrament of baptism. You also reject Vatican I and believe in a defective church which no longer can function, will function, or ever be able to function with shepherds and pastors in the Church until the end of time and therefore the gates of hell have prevailed.

      You have no means to bring yourself into the state of sanctifying grace and a false hope that you will be ready with a perfect contrition before death. I truly hope you will amend your lives one day and will offer as many Mass intentions (when I can get there which is not often) for you and your family as I can.

      Lee

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    8. Robert,
      you should count yourself extremely lucky - you're living in the USA where valid and licit sacraments are by and large still easily obtained.
      I was the author of the anonymous comment posted a few weeks ago in which I described my ordeal with the only! publicly known sede priest and community in my home country. Imagine a country with a population of 38 millions, and a thousand years of Catholic history, and a priest so scandalously negligent that despite all of the heretical antics Bergoglio has been up to, it's only the SSPX that has been gaining converts.
      Yet, I refuse to say there is no licit clergy anymore even though it would be easier for me to do so and just forego even the desire for the sacraments all-together.

      Just to be clear, I do consider you a Catholic - times have never been more difficult spiritually.

      God Bless,
      Joanna S.

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    9. Thanks Joanna S., for your reply, and for still thinking that I am a Catholic. I am just not convinced in my conscience that the Sedes are licit. On the contrary, everything that I am learning tells me that they are not.

      As for foregoing even the desire for the sacraments, nothing could be further from me heart. I am a regular reader of the Imitation of Christ, but I intentionally avoid reading the last section, that on the Holy Eucharist, not because my desire is wanting but because it is so strong that I cannot read it through my tears. I should probably make an attempt, but I am not strong enough.

      We all of us are strangers to each other, and presume to know much more than we could ever know without living with each other, and even then such deeply personal aspects of our lives, like personal devotions, are and must be hidden to a degree. Needless to say, I desire the sacraments as I desire my Lord and God. I love the Mass, and I felt so close to Heaven and to God while I offered the Mass in person, and even when my family did so via telecommunication with SSG. But, alas, I cannot order my spiritual and religious life according to my desire but according to reason and Church teachings. That is what I have tried to do, and I am veritably spiritually stoned for it. But I must endure these injuries, as well, for the glory and love of God and His Mother.

      God bless you, as well.
      Robert

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    10. Robert,

      Why are you happy when people call you Catholic but you have no problem calling sedes part of a "sect" (spectrum) on your website? By saying Sede bishops and priests are illicit and invalid you are implying that those who go to them are in schism. Even your wife compares them to Arians when she mentioned St. Hermenegild in her latest article. It's appalling.

      It is you who belongs to a sect of lay people that believe in a DIY form of "Catholicism." You ignore laws of the Church (CANON 882 to be exact), don't really believe the necessity of sacraments, and essentially believe in a vegetable Church that might as well have the plug pulled out.

      You then insult people for not making distinctions when you can't even do it by the simple fact that you assert that ordinary jurisdiction as an absolute necessity in order for a clergymanto be legit but have no problem applying the same distinctions if sacraments aren't available to be received while relying on the substitutes of the sacraments desire/contrition/spiritual communion etc. Total hypocrisy

      The Roman Catechism says this about Contrition: Contrition, it is true, blots out sin; but who does not know that to effect this it must be so intense, so ardent, so vehement, as to bear a proportion to the magnitude of the crimes which it effaces? This is a degree of contrition which FEW reach; and hence, in this way, very FEW indeed could hope to obtain the pardon of their sins.

      Lee

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    11. @Lee,
      Do you know how "Home Alone Catholics" for lack of a better term,view Priests such as Fr.Louis Campbell + Fr.John O'Connor,who are Ordained before 1968 and offer the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass and traditional Sacraments?

      Delete
    12. Robert,
      how do you reconcile your assertion that sede priests allegedly perform their priestly duties illicitly with the following passage taken from the Baltimore Catechism:

      Q. 984. What double power does the Church possess and confer on her pastors?

      A. The Church possesses and confers on her pastor, the power of orders and the power of jurisdiction; that is, the power to administer the Sacraments and sanctify the faithful, and the power to teach and make laws that direct the faithful to their spiritual good. A bishop has the full power of orders and the Pope alone has the full power of jurisdiction.
      Source:
      http://www.baltimore-catechism.com/lesson25.htm

      Also, please consider the following passages from the Catechism of St. Pius X:

      7 Q. Is the Catholic Priesthood necessary in the Church?
      A. The Catholic Priesthood is necessary in the Church, because without it the faithful would be deprived of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass and of the greater part of the sacraments; they would have no one to instruct them in the faith; and they would be as sheep without a shepherd, a prey to wolves; in short, the Church, such as Christ instituted it, would no longer exist.

      8 Q. Will the Catholic Priesthood therefore never cease on this earth?
      A. In spite of the war that hell wages against it, the Catholic Priesthood will last until the end of time, because Jesus Christ has promised that the powers of hell shall never prevail against His Church.
      Source: https://www.ewtn.com/catholicism/library/catechism-of-st-pius-x-1286

      These are sincere questions on my part. I chose specifically these two catechisms as you have stated recently in the NOW combox that you're going to rely on your catechism for religious instruction.

      God Bless,
      Joanna S.

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    13. Anon 8:45,

      It depends on which DIY at homers you ask. Some don't believe they have jurisdiction and therefore cannot function as priests. Others say that you can only go to such priests because they were given jurisdiction when they were ordained and therefore can administer sacraments.

      As for me I believe they have supplied jurisdiction necessary for dispensing the sacraments because we lack a true pope/cardinals/ and many bishops.

      Joanna,

      Great questions and answers about the priesthood from the Pope St. Pius X catechism. More proof that Holy Orders is a necessary sacrament for salvation when the MR. I follow my catechism and make all proper distinctions man says only baptism is necessary.

      Lee

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    14. Dear Joanna,

      Thank you for your sincerity. I will try to answer your questions.

      To the first, I may answer it by the concluding teaching of the lesson you took the BC quote from, namely,

      BC. 1004. Bishops, priests and other ministers of the Church cannot exercise the power they have received in Holy Orders unless authorized and sent to do so by their lawful superiors. The power can never be taken from them, but the right to use it may be withdrawn for causes laid down in the laws of the Church, or for reasons that seem good to those in authority over them. Any use of sacred power without authority is sinful, and all who take part in such ceremonies are guilty of sin.

      This teaching states that the powers of received in Holy Orders may not be used unless the priest or bishop be sent by a lawful superior, if a priest, then his bishop, and if a bishop, then the pope.

      As to the St. Pius Catechism lesson, I never said the priesthood wasn’t necessary. I just said that the sacraments, under emergency conditions (for which canon law supplies provisions) may be administered by laymen in the case of baptism and matrimony, and that Penance may be substituted by a perfect act of contrition, which the BC even teaches.

      As for whether the priesthood will last forever until the end of time, I have never doubted. There may be Catholic priests still in the world, both valid and licit. I just don’t know if any. But even if there weren’t, that wouldn’t go against the teaching in No. 8, because “priesthood” doesn’t equal “priest.” A perhaps too fine distinction, but there you go.

      But I have a question for you and your clergy that you follow: if, according to your own clergy, the bishops do not claim to have authority to teach and rule, I’m what meaningful respect are they instructing the faithful (teaching) or keeping them safe from wolves (making laws)? Your shepherds don’t act like shepherds, and do not even claim to be shepherds, but merely “sacramental bishops” who “don’t boss anyone around.” That’s a rather large hole in your argument that Sedes are carrying on the mission of the Church. They don’t even claim apostolicity, so how could they be carrying on the mission.

      Anyway, these are my initial responses. To get a better idea of where I am coming from, you should check out what I am saying over on CatholicEclipsed.com. Introibo’s website is cool, and I like visiting, but my website is more colorful—sorry Introibo, but you’ve to admit that.



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    15. Robert

      How can it be possible for you to know of a Catholic priest in the world? Do you recognize Fr. Campbell or Fr. O'Connor (priests ordained before 1968) who uphold and defend the traditional Catholic Faith? If not who else could possibly be a valid priest with jurisdiction if the old priests who are still with us do not?

      You say "Your shepherds don’t act like shepherds, and do not even claim to be shepherds, but merely “sacramental bishops” who “don’t boss anyone around.”

      I asked Bishop Pivarunas if he believed that he was a shepherd and teacher as defined by Vatican I and he said YES to me a few weeks ago. I then asked him how and he gave me a pamphlet which you can view online: Here is the link: https://cmri.org/articles-on-the-traditional-catholic-faith/historical-precedents-supporting-the-consecration-of-bishops-during-vacancy-of-the-holy-see/

      So don't tell me your baloney that they don't claim to be shepherds any more. As far as acting like shepherds they go out of there way for souls and are in it for the salvation of souls. Stop speaking nonsense.

      Lee

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    16. If Pivarunas claims apostolic succession, and authority to rule, teach and sanctify, then that is very interesting, and I will look into it. The the CMRI represents but one group calling themselves Catholic, and headed by a bishop. I do not believe Sanborn or Kelly or McGuire think they have authority. I could be wrong there, too. But, if they do claim authority, why are they not making laws for the Church? Why are they not governing as bishops of old have governed, or what is perhaps more telling, why are they not governing like Cupich (Chicago) or Dolan (Nee York)? These apostate bishops have no problem exercising authority in their dioceses. If, as you say, Sede bishops do claim authority, my only point is that they don’t act like it! And if they don’t act like it, the BC teaches us:

      BC. 507. We know that the bishops of the Church are the successors of the Apostles because they continue the work of the Apostles and give proof of the same authority. They have always exercised the rights and powers that belonged to the Apostles in making laws for the Church, in consecrating bishops and ordaining priests.

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    17. Anon 8:21 (Assuming you are Robert)

      They don't make laws for the Church because there is no pope. It could potentially cause more division. However they do teach the laws of the Church as it was last left to the Church. They also grant dispensations.

      For example: Bp. Pivarunas looks into annulments while the other bishops do not. On the other hand, SGG apostolate grants dispensations to eat meat on Friday's after Thanksgiving and the fasting laws of St. Patrick's Day during lent if it doesn't fall on a Sunday because traditionally the bishops in America would allow it. Bishop Pivarunas does not do that.

      The only thing they do not do is claim a territory such as a diocese because that has to be appointed to them. If there is no pope how can it be appointed to them? If it is impossible to be appointed to them does that mean "Oh well, the Church ceases to be able to function until that is possible" No. Remember distinctions Robert. You use distinctions to explain substitution for the other sacraments (and rightly so) if it's impossible to receive them. Why won't you believe the same for Holy Orders and how they can be administered in a crisis?

      BTW. Do you believe in Canon 882 yet?

      Lee

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    18. I have never not believed in CIC 882. I just take it for what it says, instead of believing "danger of death" means something other than "danger of death." But you cannot build a licit sacramental operation on CIC 882, which simply permits confessions to be heard by validly ordained priests, though they be unlawful to do otherwise. It does not grant carte blanche powers to priests to the other sacraments. I asked Steve how he goes from CIC 882 to all Sedevacantist sacraments are licit, and he didn't answer--because there is not answer.

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    19. Robert,

      Ligouri and others say that a long time without a priest or a confessor is the same as in danger of death yet is not actually danger of death. You are arguing against Ligouri and the other canonists as if you are a canon law expert.

      If you paid attention to Steve's article against home aloners he quoted Pope Gregory IX that necessity makes licit what is illicit. Therefore, what normally would be illicit such as consecration of bishops, ordinations of priests, and Confirmations become licit. Baptism, Marriage and Extreme Unction are specified in Canon Law as granting any priest in cases of necessity. Would you like those Canon laws and the commentaries? Confession has to do with validity, not what is licit. That's why Steve had to show where in the law jurisdiction comes for confession because it requires more than what is licit. All the sacraments are covered by Canon Law and Pope Gregory IX's decretal that necessity makes licit what is illicit.

      If you have a problem with our clergy and how they operate, than you have a problem with Pope Gregory IX and Canon Law.

      Robert, if you would start listening to the Magisterium and stop acting like you are the Magisterium deciding what the law means you wouldn't have these problems.

      Lee

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    20. Prove necessity.

      Robert

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    21. Robert,

      The context of Gregory's teaching of necessity was about the sacraments. The sacraments are necessary for salvation as the Council of Trent, The Roman Catechism and the Pope St. Pius X catechism teach. Even though God can work outside the sacraments as we already discussed, the sacraments are the ordinary means necessary for salvation. I have proved necessity by quoting Trent and the Catechisms. So either step in line or be anathema.

      Lee

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  6. Introibo, thank you for your efforts on this post. I have taken some notes and also have refreshed myself on St. Thomas Aquinas's five proofs. God bless,
    -Seeking Truth

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    1. Seeking Truth,
      Glad you found it helpful, my friend!

      ---Introibo

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