To My Readers: This week my guest poster Lee has a great topic which I'm sure you will find as interesting as I did. I can't thank Lee enough for his always great content, and for giving me a much needed respite from research and writing. Please feel free to leave comments for Lee. If anyone has a specific comment or question for me, I will respond as usual, but it may take me a bit longer to reply this week.
God bless you all, my dear readers---Introibo
The First of the Four Marks
By Lee
Recently, there has been a disagreement among a couple traditional Catholic (Sedevacantist) bishops on whether or not candidates for the episcopacy are worthy of consecration. As a result, one of them publicly cut his relationship off from the other due to what one will do and the other refuses to take part in. Not surprisingly, those united to Jorge Bergoglio (A.K.A. "Pope" Francis I) have been using this example to suggest that there is no unity among Sedevacantists as a consequence of being divided with no pope for such a long period and like the Protestants will splinter off continuously as time passes. Many seem to be amused by this.
It's a fair argument, but the irony behind this example is that those united to Francis I aren't even one in faith with him, nor his bishops throughout the world. Fr. Anthony Cekada once coined the phrase "Recognize and Resist" (R&R) and for the most part that doesn't just come out of those in the SSPX but also those in the Latin Mass societies (those granted an indult or Motu Proprio by John Paul II and Benedict XVI) such as the Fraternity of St. Peter's or the Institute of Christ the King etc. Many in these organizations have recently complained heavily about the removal of "Bp." Strickland, as if his removal was unjust, as if their pope didn't have the authority to do that, and so on. They constantly worry about whether their pope or their local bishop is going to add further restrictions as to the removal of the Tridentine Mass. When Joe Biden was told by Francis I that he was a good Catholic worthy to receive Holy Communion, even though a priest in America had previously denied him Communion, many so called conservatives including those who love the Novus Ordo liturgy (who typically don't resist) were up in arms bad mouthing him for such an outrage.
Surveys have shown that many who call themselves Catholic since the time of Vatican II, whether lay folk or even clergy, do not believe in simple dogmas or doctrines taught by the Catholic Church such as Transubstantiation, the immorality of same sex marriage, or whether the devil actually exists (Fr. McBrian d.2015). Who is responsible for this? Is it not the hierarchy? If people do not believe in basic Catholic teachings why are they tolerated? What are they being taught or why are they allowed to teach? So I revert the question back to the accusers of traditional Catholic bishops (sedevacantists), where is unity of faith in your entire church? Why all the division amongst each other, even though you do have what you call a pope?
The Mark of ONENESS
Those of us who suffer backwardness as a result of a nostalgic disease (words from none other than Francis) believe in what the Catechism of Trent teaches:
"One"
The first mark of the true Church is described in the Nicene Creed, and consists in unity: My dove is one, my beautiful one is one. So vast a multitude, scattered far and wide, is called one for the reasons mentioned by St. Paul in his Epistle to the Ephesians: One Lord, one faith, one baptism.
"Unity In Government"
The Church has but one ruler and one governor, the invisible one, Christ, whom the eternal Father hath made head over all the Church, which is his body; the visible one, the Pope, who, as legitimate successor of Peter, the Prince of the Apostles, fills the Apostolic chair.
It is the unanimous teaching of the Fathers that this visible head is necessary to establish and preserve unity in the Church. This St. Jerome clearly perceived and as clearly expressed when, in his work against Jovinian, he wrote: One is elected that, by the appointment of a head, all occasion of schism may be removed. In his letter to Pope Damasus the same holy Doctor writes: Away with envy, let the ambition of Roman grandeur cease! I speak to the successor of the fisherman, and to the disciple of the cross. Following no chief but Christ, I am united in communion with your Holiness, that is, with the chair of Peter. I know that on that rock is built the Church. Whoever will eat the lamb outside this house is profane; whoever is not in the ark of Noah shall perish in the flood.
The same doctrine was long before established by Saints Irenaeus and Cyprian. The latter, speaking of the unity of the Church observes: The Lord said to Peter, I say to thee, Peter! thou art Peter: and upon this rock I will build my Church. He builds His Church on one. And although after His Resurrection He gave equal power to all His Apostles, saying: As the Father hath sent me, I also send you, receive ye the Holy Ghost; yet to make unity more manifest, He decided by His own authority that it should be derived from one alone, etc.
Again, Optatus of Milevi says: You cannot be excused on the score of ignorance, knowing as you do that in the city of Rome the Episcopal chair was first conferred on Peter, who occupied it as head of the Apostles; in order that in that one chair the unity of the Church might be preserved by all, and that the other Apostles might not claim each a chair for himself; so that now he who erects another in opposition to this single chair is a schismatic and a prevaricator.
Later on St. Basil wrote: Peter is made the foundation, because he says: Thou art Christ, the Son of the Living God; and hears in reply that he is a rock. But although a rock, he is not such a rock as Christ; for Christ is truly an immovable rock, but Peter, only by virtue of that rock. For Jesus bestows His dignities on others; He is a priest, and He makes priests; a rock, and He makes a rock; what belongs to Himself, He bestows on His servants.
Lastly, St. Ambrose says: Because he alone of all of them professed (Christ) he was placed above all.
Should anyone object that the Church is content with one Head and one Spouse, Jesus Christ, and requires no other, the answer is obvious. For as we deem Christ not only the author of all the Sacraments, but also their invisible minister -- He it is who baptizes, He it is who absolves, although men are appointed by Him the external ministers of the Sacraments -- so has He placed over His Church, which He governs by His invisible Spirit, a man to be His vicar and the minister of His power. A visible Church requires a visible head; therefore the Saviour appointed Peter head and pastor of all the faithful, when He committed to his care the feeding of all His sheep, in such ample terms that He willed the very same power of ruling and governing the entire Church to descend to Peter's successors.
"Unity In Spirit, Hope And Faith"
Moreover, the Apostle, writing to the Corinthians, tells them that there is but one and the same Spirit who imparts grace to the faithful, as the soul communicates life to the members of the body. Exhorting the Ephesians to preserve this unity, he says: Be careful to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace; one body and one Spirit. As the human body consists of many members, animated by one soul, which gives sight to the eves, hearing to the ears, and to the other senses the power of discharging their respective functions; so the mystical body of Christ, which is the Church, is composed of many faithful. The hope, to which we are called, is also one, as the Apostle tells us in the same place; for we all hope for the same consummation, eternal and happy life. Finally, the faith which all are bound to believe and to profess is one: Let there be no schisms amongst you, says the Apostle. And Baptism, which is the seal of our Christian faith, is also one.
The above teaching leaves us either with two conclusions. Either Francis I is pope and it is he who removes all schism, preserves all unity, and it is he who feeds the sheep with the same doctrine from the time of Christ as his visible head on earth---or it is he who is an imposter, who is cut off by his own schism/heresy, a wolf in sheep's clothing who sows discord, and is devouring the sheep with poisonous doctrine, and therefore not a true shepherd who acts in the name of the Catholic Church.
It doesn't just stop with Francis I. It would also extend to the bishops in union with him in the world if he were in fact the pope because Pope St. Pius X taught in his encyclical on the Mariavites:
"But their profession of fidelity to the Vicar of Christ is vain in those who, in fact, do not cease to violate the authority of their Bishops. For “by far the most august part of the Church consists of the Bishops, (as Our Predecessor Leo XIII of holy memory wrote in his letter of December 17, 1888, to the Archbishop), inasmuch as this part by divine right teaches and rules men; hence, whoever resists them or pertinaciously refuses obedience to them puts himself apart from the Church. . . On the other hand, to pass judgment upon or to rebuke the acts of Bishops does not at all belong to private individuals — that comes within the province only of those higher than they in authority and especially of the Sovereign Pontiff, for to him Christ entrusted the charge of feeding not only His lambs, but His sheep throughout the world. At most, it is allowed in matters of grave complaint to refer the whole case to the Roman Pontiff, and this with prudence and moderation as zeal for the common good requires, not clamorously or abusively, for in this way dissensions and hostilities are bred, or certainly increased.” (Tribus Circiter #9).
What do we see today? We see total contempt by a great multitude of those who call themselves either "conservative" or "traditional" Catholics for certain bishops, many of whom were appointed by Francis himself, such as Herman Glettler of Innsbruck, Austria, or John Stowe of Lexington, KY, USA. Yet Francis praises and encourages their ministries. Who among those who wag their tongues at Traditional Catholic (Sedevacantist) bishops cannot in some way say worse things about the new head of the Dicastery of the Doctrine (destruction) of the Faith named "Cardinal" Fernandez? Was it not he who answered the opposing bishops dubia when he said that Transsexuals can receive Baptism (so long as no scandal is in involved, whatever that means) as well as be Godparents and witnesses to weddings? Do not the opposing bishops disagree? Does not Francis approve of "Cardinal" Fernandez's answers? Did not Francis invite a multitude of Transgenders to a luncheon, not to proselytize them, but rather to "dialogue" about nothing beneficial for their salvation? So where is the unity of faith in the new religion? Those who dare attack traditional Catholic bishops should take a good look in the mirror. This counterfeit religion can't agree with its pope's doctrine, how he governs, nor figure out which bishop is orthodox in faith. How can Francis be pope? Where is the unity?
What then can be said of the traditional Catholic bishops? Are they truly ONE without a pope? In faith they are one, because they recognize the same last pope (Pius XII), his authority as well as his predecessors and, consequently, teach the same traditional Catholic doctrines handed down by the Church. They have also received the traditional rites of the priesthood and episcopacy that were not affected by the new changes occurring in 1968. They may be divided in so far as how they operate. They may be divided in what isn't settled in the Church. It may be true that even some among them have fallen away into heresy and should be avoided. Without a pope there is no way for them to be unified as we shall see below. Once the shepherd is struck, the sheep are scattered, but that doesn't mean the scattered sheep are no longer Catholic without a pope. That's because every time a pope dies, the Church doesn't die for good. It just means the Church is suffering like it has never suffered before. Do sedevacantist bishops want a pope? Sure. Do they want unity? Of course, but they know it cannot be done without a pope. Is it beyond their control to do more than what they are already doing for the salvation of souls? Absolutely.
Consider Pope Leo XIII
Any serious minded Catholic ought to read Pope Leo XIII's encyclical Satis Cognitum and ponder whether this still holds true today within what is called the Catholic Church. He states,
But the mission of Christ is to save that which had perished: that is to say, not some nations or peoples, but the whole human race, without distinction of time or place. “The Son of Man came that the world might be saved by Him” (John iii., 17). “For there is no other name under Heaven given to men whereby we must be saved” (Acts iv., 12). The Church, therefore, is bound to communicate without stint to all men, and to transmit through all ages, the salvation effected by Jesus Christ, and the blessings flowing there from. Wherefore, by the will of its Founder, it is necessary that this Church should be one in all lands and at all times to justify the existence of more than one Church it would be necessary to go outside this world, and to create a new and unheard – of race of men...
Another head like to Christ must be invented – that is, another Christ if besides the one Church, which is His body, men wish to set up another. “See what you must beware of – see what you must avoid – see what you must dread. It happens that, as in the human body, some member may be cut off a hand, a finger, a foot. Does the soul follow the amputated member? As long as it was in the body, it lived; separated, it forfeits its life. So the Christian is a Catholic as long as he lives in the body: cut off from it he becomes a heretic – the life of the spirit follows not the amputated member” (S. Augustinus, Sermo cclxvii., n. 4)...
The Church of Christ, therefore, is one and the same for ever; those who leave it depart from the will and command of Christ, the Lord – leaving the path of salvation they enter on that of perdition. “Whosoever is separated from the Church is united to an adulteress. He has cut himself off from the promises of the Church, and he who leaves the Church of Christ cannot arrive at the rewards of Christ….He who observes not this unity observes not the law of God, holds not the faith of the Father and the Son, clings not to life and salvation” (S. Cyprianus, De Cath. Eccl. Unitate, n. 6)...
But He, indeed, Who made this one Church, also gave it unity, that is, He made it such that all who are to belong to it must be united by the closest bonds, so as to form one society, one kingdom, one body – “one body and one spirit as you are called in one hope of your calling (Eph. iv., 4). Jesus Christ, when His death was nigh at hand, declared His will in this matter, and solemnly offered it up, thus addressing His Father: “Not for them only do I pray, but for them also who through their word shall believe in Me…that they also may be one in Us…that they may be made perfect in one” John xvii., 20-21 23). Yea, He commanded that this unity should be so closely knit and so perfect amongst His followers that it might, in some measure, shadow forth the union between Himself and His Father: “I pray that they all may be one as Thou Father in Me and I in Thee” (Ibid. 21).
Agreement and union of minds is the necessary foundation of this perfect concord amongst men, from which concurrence of wills and similarity of action are the natural results. Wherefore, in His divine wisdom, He ordained in His Church Unity of Faith; a virtue which is the first of those bonds which unite man to God, and whence we receive the name of the faithful – “one Lord, one faith, one baptism” (Eph. iv., 5). That is, as there is one Lord and one baptism, so should all Christians, without exception, have but one faith. And so the Apostle St. Paul not merely begs, but entreats and implores Christians to be all of the same mind, and to avoid difference of opinions: “I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no schisms amongst you, and that you be perfect in the same mind and in the same judgment” (I Cor. i., 10)... Besides, all who profess Christianity allow that there can be but one faith. It is of the greatest importance and indeed of absolute necessity, as to which many are deceived, that the nature and character of this unity should be recognized. And, as We have already stated, this is not to be ascertained by conjecture, but by the certain knowledge of what was done; that is by seeking for and ascertaining what kind of unity in faith has been commanded by Jesus Christ...
The Church, founded on these principles and mindful of her office, has done nothing with greater zeal and endeavor than she has displayed in guarding the integrity of the faith. Hence She regarded as rebels and expelled from the ranks of her children all who held beliefs on any point of doctrine different from Her own. The Arians, the Montanists, the Novatians, the Quartodecimans, the Eutychians, did not certainly reject all Catholic doctrine: they abandoned only a certain portion of it. Still who does not know that they were declared heretics and banished from the bosom of the Church? In like manner were condemned all authors of heretical tenets who followed them in subsequent ages. “There can be nothing more dangerous than those heretics who admit nearly the whole cycle of doctrine, and yet by one word, as with a drop of poison, infect the real and simple faith taught by our Lord and handed down by Apostolic tradition” (Auctor Tract. de Fide Orthodoxa contra Arianos).
The practice of the Church has always been the same, as is shown by the unanimous teaching of the Fathers, who were wont to hold as outside Catholic communion, and alien to the Church, whoever would recede in the least degree from any point of doctrine proposed by her authoritative Magisterium. Epiphanius, Augustine, Theodore:, drew up a long list of the heresies of their times. St. Augustine notes that other heresies may spring up, to a single one of which, should any one give his assent, he is by the very fact cut off from Catholic unity. “No one who merely disbelieves in all (these heresies) can for that reason regard himself as a Catholic or call himself one. For there may be or may arise some other heresies, which are not set out in this work of ours, and, if any one holds to one single one of these he is not a Catholic” (S. Augustinus, De Haeresibus, n. 88).
The need of this divinely instituted means for the preservation of unity, about which we speak is urged by St. Paul in his epistle to the Ephesians. In this he first admonishes them to preserve with every care concord of minds: “Solicitous to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace” (Eph. iv., 3, et seq.). And as souls cannot be perfectly united in charity unless minds agree in faith, he wishes all to hold the same faith: “One Lord, one faith,” and this so perfectly one as to prevent all danger of error: “that henceforth we be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine by the wickedness of men, by cunning craftiness, by which they lie in wait to deceive” (Eph. iv., 14): and this he teaches is to be observed, not for a time only – “but until we all meet in the unity of faith…unto the measure of the age of the fullness of Christ." But, in what has Christ placed the primary principle, and the means of preserving this unity? In that – “He gave some Apostles – and other some pastors and doctors, for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ” (11-12)...
For this reason the Fathers of the Vatican Council laid down nothing new, but followed divine revelation and the acknowledged and invariable teaching of the Church as to the very nature of faith, when they decreed as follows: “All those things are to be believed by divine and Catholic faith which are contained in the written or unwritten word of God, and which are pro posed by the Church as divinely revealed, either by a solemn definition or in the exercise of its ordinary and universal Magisterium (Sess. iii., cap. 3). Hence, as it is clear that God absolutely willed that there should be unity in His Church, and as it is evident what kind of unity He willed, and by means of what principle He ordained that this unity should be maintained, we may address the following words of St. Augustine to all who have not deliberately closed their minds to the truth: “When we see the great help of God, such manifest progress and such abundant fruit, shall we hesitate to take refuge in the bosom of that Church, which, as is evident to all, possesses the supreme authority of the Apostolic See through the Episcopal succession? In vain do heretics rage round it; they are condemned partly by the judgment of the people themselves, partly by the weight of councils, partly by the splendid evidence of miracles. To refuse to the Church the primacy is most impious and above measure arrogant. And if all learning, no matter how easy and common it may be, in order to be fully understood requires a teacher and master, what can be greater evidence of pride and rashness than to be unwilling to learn about the books of the divine mysteries from the proper interpreter, and to wish to condemn them unknown?” (De Unitate Credendi, cap. xvii., n. 35).
It is then undoubtedly the office of the church to guard Christian doctrine and to propagate it in its integrity and purity. But this is not all: the object for which the Church has been instituted is not wholly attained by the performance of this duty... There must needs be also the fitting and devout worship of God, which is to be found chiefly in the divine Sacrifice and in the dispensation of the Sacraments, as well as salutary laws and discipline. All these must be found in the Church, since it continues the mission of the Saviour for ever. The Church alone offers to the human race that religion – that state of absolute perfection – which He wished, as it were, to be incorporated in it. And it alone supplies those means of salvation which accord with the ordinary counsels of Providence...
But the Episcopal order is rightly judged to be in communion with Peter, as Christ commanded, if it be subject to and obeys Peter; otherwise it necessarily becomes a lawless and disorderly crowd. It is not sufficient for the due preservation of the unity of the faith that the head should merely have been charged with the office of superintendent, or should have been invested solely with a power of direction. But it is absolutely necessary that he should have received real and sovereign authority which the whole community is bound to obey. What had the Son of God in view when he promised the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven to Peter alone? Biblical usage and the unanimous teaching of the Fathers clearly show that supreme authority is designated in the passage by the word keys. Nor is it lawful to interpret in a different sense what was given to Peter alone, and what was given to the other Apostles conjointly with him. If the power of binding, loosening, and feeding confers upon each and every one of the Bishops the successors of the Apostles a real authority to rule the people committed to him, certainly the same power must have the same effect in his case to whom the duty of feeding the lambs and sheep has been assigned by God. “Christ constituted [Peter] not only pastor, but pastor of pastors; Peter therefore feeds the lambs and feeds the sheep, feeds the children and feeds the mothers, governs the subjects and rules the prelates, because the lambs and the sheep form the whole of the Church” (S. Bruonis Episcopi Signiensis Comment. in Joan., part iii., cap. 21, n. 55).
Hence those remarkable expressions of the ancients concerning St. Peter, which most clearly set forth the fact that he was placed n the highest degree of dignity and authority. They frequently call him “the Prince of the College of the Disciples; the Prince of the holy Apostles; the leader of that choir; the mouthpiece of all the Apostles; the head of that family; the ruler of the whole world; the first of the Apostles; the safeguard of the Church.” In this sense St. Bernard writes as follows to Pope Eugenius: “Who art thou? The great priest – the high priest. Thou art the Prince of Bishops and the heir of the Apostles…. Thou art he to whom the keys were given. There are, it is true, other gatekeepers of heaven and to pastors of flocks, but thou are so much the more glorious as thou hast inherited a different and more glorious name than all the rest. They have flocks consigned to them, one to each; to thee all the flocks are confided as one flock to one shepherd, and not alone the sheep, but the shepherds. You ask how I prove this? From the words of the Lord. To which – I do not say – of the Bishops, but even of the Apostles have all the sheep been so absolutely and unreservedly committed? If thou lovest me, Peter, feed my sheep. Which sheep? Of this or that country, or kingdom? My sheep, He says: to whom therefore is it not evident that he does not designate some, but all? We can make no exception where no distinction is made” (De Consideratione, lib. ii., cap. 8).
But it is opposed to the truth, and in evident contradiction with the divine constitution of the Church, to hold that while each Bishop is individually bound to obey the authority of the Roman Pontiffs, taken collectively the Bishops are not so bound. For it is the nature and object of a foundation to support the unity of the whole edifice and to give stability to it, rather than to each component part; and in the present case this is much more applicable, since Christ the Lord wished that by the strength and solidity of the foundation the gates of hell should be prevented from prevailing against the Church. All are agreed that the divine promise must be understood of the Church as a whole, and not of any certain portions of it. These can indeed be overcome by the assaults of the powers of hell, as in point of fact has befallen some of them. Moreover, he who is set over the whole flock must have authority, not only over the sheep dispersed throughout the Church, but also when they are assembled together. Do the sheep when they are all assembled together rule and guide the shepherd? Do the successors of the Apostles assembled together constitute the foundation on which the successor of St. Peter rests in order to derive therefrom strength and stability? Surely jurisdiction and authority belong to him in whose power have been placed the keys of the Kingdom taken collectively. And as the Bishops, each in his own district, command with real power not only individuals but the whole community, so the Roman pontiffs, whose jurisdiction extends to the whole Christian commonwealth, must have all its parts, even taken collectively, subject and obedient to their authority. Christ the Lord, as we have quite sufficiently shown, made Peter and his successors His vicars, to exercise for ever in the Church the power which He exercised during His mortal life. Can the Apostolic College be said to have been above its master in authority? (Emphasis mine).
Conclusion
Is Francis or the "Church" since Vatican II continuing the mission of Christ to save souls by converting all nations to be in the one fold; the Catholic Church and Her alone? Is Francis or the Church since Vatican II keeping the Church one in faith by guarding its integrity from every drop of poisonous heresy that could potentially infect the whole Mystical Body of Christ, which would be foreign to Her? Are the bishops in union with him not teaching the same things as Francis and the Church after Vatican II? If it is the Catholic Church are we not bound to obey it despite all its newness since Vatican II? If the answer to all these question are no, then tell me dear reader, how can anybody still united to it say with a clear conscience, I believe in ONE, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church?! It would have to be some place else where the gates of Hell (i.e., the tongues of heretics according to Pope Vigilius), shall not prevail against it.
Greetings. I didn't know whether to leave these questions in this article that Lee kindly shared. If you do not consider it convenient, do not publish it. I have the following doubts: the first may be nonsense, but when I felt like a member of the Church - known to you as Novus Ordo - many things seemed strange to me. One, probably not important, I don't know, was seeing that many people who considered themselves Catholic in summer went to the beaches - in my country there are many beaches - half naked, showing their bodies in an immodest way. Well, they show it outside the beach too. My question would be if, according to you, a Catholic can go to the beach and how. In the Church nothing is said about this issue and I see a lot of shamelessness in today's society.
ReplyDeleteAnd the next question is related to a publication I read on the site "Sursum corda" -in Spanish-:
https://sursumpost.wordpress.com/2023/12/09/lienart-era-un-mason-respuesta-a-herve-belmont-y-david-martinez/
I summarize it: Lefebvre was not validly consecrated bishop because Lienart was a declared Mason and also did not want to consecrate him a bishop, according to Lefebvre himself in his memoirs. The doctrine affirms that for the validity of a sacrament, the following general requirements are required: matter, form, intention, adequate minister, adequate efficient cause. No matter how externally it may appear that the consecration is valid, if the intention was not that it is declared invalid. And he gives several examples to illustrate it: one of them, that of an ancient pope who declared an episcopal consecration invalid due to lack of intention (Ludwig Ott, Dogmatic Theology, IV, 3. Appendix.)
It's true?
Thank you so much.
Young reader from Spain.
Hello, fellow anonymous reader,
DeleteThe late Fr. Anthony Cekada addressed this argument regarding Lefebvre's ordination here: https://traditionalmass.org/articles/article.php?id=100&catname=13
Young Reader from Spain,
Delete1. At the beach, men should wear swim wear that is not tight. Women should wear modest swimsuits that do not render them scantily clad, drawing attention to their breasts and overall figure. To the best of my knowledge and belief, there is no Church declaration specifically dealing with the beach. Catholic decency and common sense must rule. Personally, I do not go to the beach as it is an occasion of sin, and I cannot tell others how to dress.
2. The consecration of Abp. Lefebvre doesn't matter as there were two co-consecrating bishops besides Lienart. As long as one gets it right he's valid. The fear is that since Lienart was allegedly a Mason, he withheld his intention when he ordained the Abp. to the priesthood and there is only one bishop for that --Lienart. If a man is not a priest, it is dubious whether he can be validly consecrated. No worries. Besides Fr. Cekada's article given by a reader above, I have also written on that topic.
See my post:
https://introiboadaltaredei2.blogspot.com/2018/05/intent-on-causing-harm.html
God Bless,
---Introibo
Thank you my friends!
DeleteYoung reader from Spain
Mixed bathing has always been forbidden. Incredible that it needs to be pointed out to supposed traditional Catholics.
Delete@anon2:51
DeleteThat's not correct. The Church condemned public BATHS (frequent among the pagans) which were often little more than an orgy in water. Not analogous to modern swimming. The only teaching on mixed public swimming that I've ever encountered, was from the Archbishop of Toledo, Spain, Cardinal Enrique Pla y Deniel, who wrote:
"A special danger to morals is represented by public bathing at beaches, in pools and river banks...Mixed bathing between men and women, which is nearly always a proximate occasion of sin and a scandal, must be avoided." (As reported by several R&R organizations, including SSPX and TIA; they list no citation, but in these matters they are generally reliable).
The Cardinal was a bishop with ordinary jurisdiction, but his teaching has no binding force outside his diocese. However, he correctly applies Catholic principles to the case at hand. So while no formal teaching of the Church exists specifically to mixed swimming at beaches, common sense and Catholic morals tell us to stay away.
I have no authority to issue a condemnation or make any authoritative statement. Hence, this is my mere opinion as a layman.
God Bless,
---Introibo
Is it possible (someday) to do a post on the theology of current jurisdiction of Bishops? Or, has it already been done? It is a very confusing issue to me, and relates to unity. Priests are supposed to be responsible to a Bishop, correct? But how is jurisdiction granted to new Bishops without a Pope? And, must independent Priests be affiliated with a particular Bishop, without any sort of jurisdictional map or Diocese?
ReplyDeleteAlso, if one believes that SSPV priests may be schismatic by denying Catholics the sacraments relating to a belief in and receiving sacraments from Thuc-line Priests or Bishops, are those SSPV's sacraments (Communion and Penance, etc validly received?
Anon 6:08,
DeleteI hate over loading people with information but another traditional Catholic has answered most of these question that you have. Here are some links to his particular articles on his website...
https://stevensperay.wordpress.com/2022/07/10/the-problem-with-the-home-alone-position-part-i/
https://stevensperay.wordpress.com/2022/08/02/supplied-jurisdiction-for-sedevacantist-clergy-the-problem-with-the-home-alone-position-part-ii/
https://stevensperay.wordpress.com/2022/09/03/where-the-shepherds-and-teachers-are-the-problem-with-the-home-alone-position-part-iii/
https://stevensperay.wordpress.com/2023/09/03/the-hierarchy-dogma/
He mostly wrote these articles as a response to those who don't think you can go anywhere known as home aloners but it's mainly concerned with questions about jurisdiction and how it is possible that the Church can continue without a pope and with bishops without a pope.
The SSPV priests deny Holy Communion to those who are associated with Thuc Bishops because the bishops and priests of that organization do not recognize Archbishop Thuc as a valid bishop and make the implication that they are schism because of association with the CMRI (Fr. Jenkins debate with Fr. Cekada from 2002 revealed this). However, the Thuc bishops do not regard the SSPV to be in schism. The Thuc bishops are defended here http://thucbishops.com/ by the author of Novus Ordo Watch. Wthat's even more edifying is this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D6lPGeQ3_S8 clearing Archbishop Thuc by Fr. Hughes
Hopefully, I answered all your question and I'm sorry if it's overwhelming but there is a lot to it.
Lee
My apologies for my typos, including a few in my own article.
DeleteLee
Thank you very much for the response and for the great article! I have been a committed sedevacantist for quite a while, but am always in need of clarifications on theological issues that seem to confuse many people. This site is one of the best at giving logical insights based on Doctrines taught by true Catholic theologians. The same can be said for Steven Speray.
DeleteThank you and Introibo for all you do. We all are in need of each others prayers!
Lee,
DeleteYou perform a wonderful service for my readers. I need a break from writing and research, which you provide, while giving great content to those who come to read here. it is MY responsibility to be a better proofreader. I have corrected those typos and give you my apologies.
God bless you, my friend
---Introibo
Same Anonymous here - 6:08am
DeleteI read through Steven Speray's articles and a couple others on jurisdiction and completely agree with him on the present state of jurisdiction in the Church.
My question now is if it is licit to receive Penance and Communion from potentially schismatic priests (SSPV or Franciscan Friars)? Both of these are near me, but I feel dishonest going to SSPV since I believe in the Thuc line of consecrations, and have greater difficulties understanding or believing the jurisditional stance of the Franciscans. The closest CMRI priest is about 5 hours away.
This question was the reason for my need first for clarification. I have spent many years studying the Church's scholars and theologians but remain a bit confused, lacking formal education in theology or canon law.
Thank you both, Lee & Introibo for all of your help.There are many times when I think we all feel like we are "so helpless and alone" as in the St. Jude prayer. Among about 100 close relatives who were all brought up as Catholics, I am ther only one who believes in the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.
I would ask you and all your readers to pray for me but mostly for the other 100+ relatives who do not believe.
Thank you!
Anon 6:40,
DeleteIf you have nothing other than the SSPV or even the sedevacantist Friars, there is nothing wrong with attending their Masses or confessions. Just don't drink the kool-aid now that you know where they stand on those topics. They have the true Faith but are just simply wrong about their positions.
I would personally go to the SSPV but they won't give me the sacraments, so I don't waste my time.
Lee
Thank you!
DeleteI go to SSPV. Don’t discuss Thuc. Just go about your own business. No need to get into discussions we are not qualified for (maybe you are, most won’t be). If no priests from your area are CMRI then why the worry. Go receive your sacraments and go about your business. That sounds mean when I read it but my purpose is to be sincere and I do believe your soul is safe there. Before I first went to SSPV I was made to believe they were the scary boogeyman. Ooooh! I found that to be not so.
DeleteAnon 9:40,
DeleteI never implied they were the boogeyman. The priests from the SSPV (that I've met) are similar in their conduct as any other traditional priests from Thuc bishops. It's actually the other way around with regards to who treats who as the boogeyman. Fr. Cekada proves that here: https://www.fathercekada.com/2019/07/04/spiritual-cooties-the-sspv-sacramental-penalties-after-30-years/
Lee
Anon 6:40,
DeleteIn addition to the wonderful links Lee shared, you may also benefit from part of Bp. Pivarunas’s recent talk. The link is time stamped to start at 1hr 9min into the lecture, and the section on jurisdiction is less than 10 minutes long.
-S.T.
https://youtu.be/UCeJvPYgD2w?si=I4x8tLkuDpI-Chhi&t=4130
Lee,
DeleteI didn’t say the boogeyman implication was your yours. Those implications are from neo-cons in the virtual land of on-line.
I do enjoy reading your posts.
Anon. 8:05,
DeleteVery sorry I misunderstood you.
Lee
It's been sometime since I've made a comment on this blog or even Novus Ordo Watch. I recently heard of the said controversy regarding bishops being consecrated, resulting in another disagreement.
ReplyDeleteIf I may reiterate something a priest of the Company of Jesus and Mary (a group founded by the late Bishop Morello) once said to me.
"I don't know why some of my fellow clergymen can't solve these issues privately behind closed doors."
I grow tired of seeing Bishops and priests constantly making their disagreements public. While we should pray for a true pope, we should also be praying that these Bishops maintain some sense of unity during this time of vacancy.
None the less, great article Lee. God bless you.
Jeremy Van Auker,
DeleteGreat to see you comment. I grow tired of sedesplaining on behalf of the bishops. It's no fun, especially when trying to convert people to the traditional Catholic way. People already have a hard enough time even wanting to be sedevacantist and when they see the discontent among those they join, it doesn't help.
I just simply want people to believe the Catholic Church as it was before Vatican II, put it into practice with some effort, and study the Faith in and out when they have the time. I understand it's hard for many because they have families and hard work schedules, so I can't really blame them.
Take care of yourself,
Lee
I heartily agree with what Jeremy wrote!
DeleteGreat article, Lee!
Thank you.
God Bless.
-Jannie
Thank you Jannie as always,
DeleteLee
FOR OUR ENGLISH-SPEAKING READERS: BREAKING NEWS!!!
ReplyDeletePOLISH MP GRZEGORZ BRAUN EXTINGUISHES JEWISH HANUKKAH MENORAH CANDLES.
AN ATTEMPT @ OUR OBJECTIVE I.E. CATHOLIC COMMENTARY.
On December 12, 2023 Grzegorz Braun, a Polish Catholic R&R (Recognize and Resist) MP put out Jewish menorah candles placed in the House of Parliament using a FIRE EXTINGUISHER. The echoes of that act still reverberate around the world.
Scandal ensued. Those who were scandalized called for practical lynch on Grzegorz Braun. The MP explained that his act meant a protest against the racist, satanic, talmudic ideology represented by the Jewish religious festival. He called on his fellow MPs and all truth-loving people of good will to join in the debate about the real meaning of Hannukah.
Lots of internet comments showed support for Braun and his actions. Even though he was vilified even by fellow-members of his parliamentary club, common men's reactions were generally much more often positive.
What might be missed in the whole ongoing debate are the following points:
1) Grzegorz Braun stirred up a hornet's nest by... mentioning Jesus Christ's Kingship? Not exactly. Appealing for the rights of God in a country's socio-political landscape? Nah... Saying something about keeping the basics of civilized life: the Ten Commandments? Oh, no, sir. HE JUST TOUCHED UPON THE MATTER OF THE MEANING OF A JEWISH RELIGIOUS FESTIVAL. Celebrated and tolerated by those who were once the chosen people of God. Since A.D. 33 they lost that title forever...
So now the worldly (in the biblical sense of the word 'world') media hate (and in a way at once promote) Grzegorz Braun because he touched upon a sensitive (maybe THE sensitive) topic. Funny to see how Mr. Braun became an overnight sensation. For the good or for the better?...
2) Grzegorz Braun challenged other MPs to a political and theological debate on the meaning of Hannukah. It seems that nobody replied in the positive. They just seemed to reply with the quite well-known equivalent of "CRUCIFY HIM!" (though, as the death penalty is practically outlawed, they "just" want Braun dead socially, politically, personally, medially – maybe not physically, but who knows? Maybe it will come to this).
3) The (clownish IMHO) speaker of the Parliament admitted that there was a RELIGIOUS CELEBRATION ongoing on the grounds of the lower chamber of the Polish parliament. So what about the so much hailed "religious indifferentism" of the state aka "separation of state and church"?
4) While Grzegorz Braun was successfully doing his act [pun or no pun intended :) ], the onlookers were... well, they were just looking at what he was doing. Any reaction? Protest? Well, sorta... One FEMALE (we wouldn't call her a lady, though) tried to stop the MP. But mostly: BANG! Take out your mobile phones, let's film the stuff. That's what these guys are made of! A man might be drowning and they'd just pull out their smartphone and video the whole event! Which, by the way, means that ONE MAN OF ACTION MIGHT MAKE ALL THE DIFFERENCE IN THE WORLD. EVEN TODAY. WITH GOD ON HIS SIDE, HOPEFULLY.
We are still waiting for all the repercussions of the (in?)famous EVENT (if one might call it like that). It seems too soon to declare Mr. Braun one of our HEROES OF TRADITION... Meanwhile we humbly invite your to visit our flagship website:
https://martyr.pl/
as well as our fanpage:
https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100095242480737
If you could hep us spread the good message about the (sometimes forgotten) HEROES OF TRADITION by liking, following, sharing and otherwise supporting our Facebook profile, we would be most appreciative,
In Christo, Fidelis Zagórski,
editor of Martyr.pl
https://martyr.pl/
Fidelis,
DeleteThank you for the breaking news story!
God Bless,
---Introibo
Hi Fidelis!
DeleteNice blog, keep it up!
Who's your bishop? CMRI/SGG/SSPV/Sanborn (RCI)?
All the best!
“R&R” so not catholic
DeleteWho are the traditional bishops who have had a recent falling out?
ReplyDeleteBp. McGuire and Bp. Da Silva.
DeleteLee and Introibo
ReplyDeleteDo you think these two priests should be consecrated by Bp Da Silva?
The priest in Canada was of the SSPX and has a number of missions. SGG can't have all the missions.
In recent years SGG has caused much division . Please God may this stop .
We wonder what the thoughts of Bp Pivarunas would be?
Great article Lee
Anon 3:34,
DeleteAs long as the priests to be consecrated bishops are sedevacantists, believe in all the teachings of the Catholic Church prior to V-II, and display true leadership roles, I have no problem. If these priests do not have such characteristics, then no. I haven't looked into these men's background, so I do not have a well informed opinion at the moment.
I'm also not sure what Bp. Pivarunas thinks.
I'm of the opinion that there needs to be more bishops, because with more bishops there is more room to spread throughout the world. However, it's a serious matter to choose a worthy candidate because not all men are worthy of such an office. In a sense it's good that Bp. McGuire is not approving for prudence sake, but it is also good in a sense good that Bp. Da Silva is thinking about the need of bishops. Without a pope to ultimately decide, which is of course the normal means to sort these kind of things, we can only pray for the intentions of Holy Mother the Church, and if it is God's Will a true pope.
Lee
@anon3:34,
DeleteI am in agreement with Lee.
God Bless,
---Introibo
Long time reader, first time commenter here. My family and I are members of Our Lady of Joy Mission in Moncton, New Brunswick, Canada pastored by Father Pierre Roy who is to be consecrated as bishop by Bp. Da Silva. Father Roy is an extraordinarily hard working priest and for the past eight years has travelled thousands of miles across eastern Canada from Newfoundland to Ontario bringing the sacraments of the Church to groups large and small in six different Provinces. He is a man of impeccable integrity and has a true love for the faithful of his missions.
DeleteHis efforts resulted in 100 persons needing the sacrament of Confirmation by the summer of 2022. It was almost impossible to find a bishop to come and perform this rite for us but finally Bishop Da Silva travelled all the way from Brazil and came to our aid. For Bishop Da Silva's help we will be eternally grateful. It was apparent to Bishop Da Silva that we needed a Bishop in Canada to ordain priests and give the sacrament of Confirmation to those in need. Father Roy was initially hesitant to assume this office and there was some back and forth discussions for about a year and a half before Father Roy agreed.
The members of the mission are all enthusiastically positive about this turn of events and we believe that with the help of God's grace that Father will make an excellent Bishop.
The irony of this division between Bp. McGuire and Bp. Da Silva comes from the fact that Bp. Da Silva travelled all the way from Brazil to consecrate Father McGuire to the office of Bishop in Ohio and now Bp. McGuire is questioning Bp. da Silva's prudence in consecrating sedevacantist Bishops in two countries that presently have none. It is all so tiresome and unnecessary.
One would have hoped that with the changing of the guard from the first generation of sede Bishops and their disagreements that there could have been a more cooperative and charitable approach among those of the new generation not more of the "follow me or die" attitude described by Father Cekada.
Perhaps we all need to do more penance and offer more prayers for unity amongst the Traditionalist (Catholic) community.
John
John,
DeleteThank you for sharing the details. Many of us are not familiar with places in the world such as Canada. It's certainly necessary that Canada at least has one or two bishops for traditional Catholics and I'm glad that you will be provided with one.
How old is he? Young? Middle aged? Older?
Who ordained him and when did he embrace the sedevacantist position?
Lee
Lee,
DeleteThanks for your interest in the Traditional movement in Canada.I have, for the past few years, noted your comments both on this site and at NOW and have appreciated your insights.
Father Roy has impeccable credentials as a Trad Catholic having been raised in the French-speaking SSPX community near Quebec City, went to minor seminary in France, studied for the priesthood at Econe, Switzerland, and for his final year of studies went to the SSPX seminary in the United States(where he learned to speak English) and was ordained into the priesthood by Bishop Fellay in 2011.
Father has told us that very early in his priesthood he realized that he could not name Bergoglio as someone he could be in union with in the Te Igitur prayer. In my understanding there are SSPX priests who refuse to name Bergoglio as una cum but keep this fact quiet. Father Roy was not content to keep his beliefs quiet and so had to part ways with the SSPX over this issue.
About eight years ago Father moved to Moncton, New Brunswick and began providing the sacraments to a handful of people in a small downtown apartment and was soon in demand to do this for people in groups stretching from our easternmost province, Newfoundland, to Nova Scotia, Prince Edward Island, Quebec, and Ontario a span of about 2000 kilometres. Regardless of the size of congregation Father Roy has taken pity on the faithful who have been deprived of the sacraments and has spent many hours on the road while maintaining his home parish in Moncton. If people are interested they could take a look at our parish website https://www.latinmassmaritimes.org/. You will find the website is published in both French and English as there many in Father's faithful who speak only one or the other language as well as many who are bilingual. As a point of interest New Brunswick is the only officially declared bilingual province in Canada.
I could say much more about Father Roy's courage in the face of the restrictions imposed upon the Church during the madness of the Covid lockdowns, but prudence dictates otherwise as it could all happen again.
There is also a CMRI church in London, Ontario pastored by Fr. Jeremy Saunders about which information could be found here: https://ourladyofvictory.ca/.
So far we are a small but growing community clinging with all that we have to the teachings and sacraments of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church and ask you to pray for us.
John
John,
DeleteThank you for all the info. Sounds like you have man of good will and I hope for the best on behalf of all Catholics in your country. Let us pray for the rest of the world, such as the Asian countries and Australia as well as Europe to get a few more bishops.
Lee
To John and Everyone,
DeleteJohn did not say anything about Fr. Roy having any training in a Sede seminary after leaving the SSPX. Many of the learned Sede clergy, who go to rigorous training, and those who don't, know there is modernism tainted in SSPX seminaries.
My guess with there doubt as to make him a bishop would come from the fact they are not sure of his training.
I kinda agree, and kinda don't. I think every country should have a bishop. However, I have a cousin who was trained in the SSPX who is now a Novus Ordo priest.
SSPX training is weak.
Lee,
ReplyDeleteThank you for your efforts on this article. This is a great follow-up to last week’s which included religious pluralism. I love the fact that we believe (or at least, we are supposed to believe), the same things regarding the Faith. Of course some topics and teachings are more complicated than others, but I read a while ago that God doesn’t expect all of us to be theological experts in order to be Catholic, but we are bound to learn the Faith to the best of our ability. In the early months of my conversion, a priest made a comment to me – something to the effect that isn’t it wonderful that you don’t have to worry as much about commenting on certain topics in fellowship, as we all share the same Faith. We are one, united, in the mystical Body of Christ. I had no idea what others’ faiths might be in our old N.O. churches.
Thank you for sharing the excerpts from the Catechism of Trent and Satis Cognitum. I often feel overwhelmed by all of the things I should be listening to or reading, so this way I am “forced” to read parts of these important works. Christ is King, so it should follow that He gave us visible vicars as His representatives. Does it make sense to abandon or ignore the vicars the King has provided? How would we feel on judgment day if we told the King, “I decided that I could ignore your vicar”, as either we knew better how to think, we didn’t care, or we believe that the people should decide what is best?
It is hard to fathom how anyone in, or outside of, the N.O. could think that the N.O. religion is united in faith. I remember when we reached out to fellow “catholics” in the past regarding voting on an abortion issue on the ballot. Plenty of crickets, but one response was “I’m against abortion, but more importantly, I’m pro-life”. This befuddled us, but we think we figured it out. This is sadly the mental state of many in the N.O., in the era of “my truth”. Often times one needs to be a mental contortionist to avoid cognitive dissonance, and I think the more conservative one is in the N.O., the more flexible they need to be. It blew our minds that these people were “catholic” but weren’t necessarily going to vote against abortion. So much for unity on this important issue.
“And so the Apostle St. Paul not merely begs, but entreats and implores Christians to be all of the same mind, and to avoid difference of opinions: “I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no schisms amongst you, and that you be perfect in the same mind and in the same judgment” (I Cor. i., 10).” I’ll have to reference this quote from Pope Leo XIII when speaking with Protestants, as many highly revere St. Paul.
“And if all learning… requires a teacher and master, what can be greater evidence of pride and rashness than to be unwilling to learn about the books of the divine mysteries from the proper interpreter…?” St. Augustine’s words remind me of some Bible study groups. Scriptural interpretation questions? Take a vote on it.
Again, thank you for your article. I am the better for reading it. Repeating some quotes that I found particular useful and making some comments help me to better retain some of the lessons contained herein.
-Seeking Truth
Seeking Truth,
DeleteYou always provide articulate comments and they are much appreciated. If more people were like you, this world would be a better place because you care and are truly seeking the truth.
Lee
It's hard to find educated people about this topic, however, you seem like you know what you're talking about!
ReplyDeleteThanks
Anon. 9:52,
DeleteI can only hope. It's simple. If we are Catholic and we say we believe in the four marks, we should be able to articulate how they apply to the Church at present. It's clear that new religion doesn't have any of them, but especially the very first one.
I heard Michael Lofton saying on his podcast the other day that "Pope" Francis is to easy on those like Vigano and Schnieder and that he should excommunicate them since they are advocating schism. He also thinks that liberal bishops, many who were appointed by his pope, who practice extreme leftist view points also should be cut off.
What he fails to see is that he's being the pope's pope by his mere criticisms of Francis' decisions. He also shouldn't be criticizing the bishops because that goes against what Pope St. Pius X taught.
So if the new Church is the Catholic Church where is the oneness in faith between those like Lofton who have to splain away their pope and bishops? Where is the oneness in faith between Francis and all the bishops united to him who hold different beliefs as to the papacy or to moral teachings like with the LGBT?
Pre-Vatican II popes all agreed on the same faith taught by Our Lord. Condemned the same errors. They were concerned about the salvation of souls. The bishops united to them were saying the same faith as them and if one of them faltered they were excommunicated at once. There was no such thing as what we have now. I'm hoping people can see the obvious conclusion in all of this.
Lee
The R&R "trads" will say they believe what the Church has always believed and worship the way the Church has always worshipped so they have the unity, right? No quite so, that pesky "Pope issue" is a stumbling block to them. Let them grab any pre-Vatican II apologetics (nothing too academic, these courses were written for the average Joe in the pew with a high-school diploma) and see that the unity of government is an essential part of the first mark of the Church (along with the doctrine and the liturgy).
ReplyDeleteThis does not destroy the case for sedevacantism at all as the willingness to submit to a true Pope is there.
They like to quote St. Vincent of Lerins and the Church Fathers but there would be no St. Vincent nor any of the early Fathers of the Church if it hadn't been for the Popes who authoritatively declared them as such!
Thank you for keeping Introibo's blog going top-notch (as usual), Lee!
God Bless You All,
Joanna S.
Joanna S.
DeleteThank you very much. I hope you have a Merry Christmas next week as well.
Lee
How can I prove that the four marks are biblical to a sola scripture type Protestant who rejects them and the nicene creed as pagan interpolations into Christianity. I5 would have to be unequivocal or close
ReplyDeleteGod bless