The Church uses technical terms in Latin and the true sense is not always apparent by just "reading the document." There is also a danger inherent in reacting against what appears to be Modernist. The arch-heretic Leonard Feeney was right in condemning a false and un-Catholic notion of Baptism of Desire that some clergy were teaching in the 1940s. However, instead of correcting them by reaffirming the Catholic truth of Baptism of Desire, he heretically denied it existed.
The subject of this post is the origin of the First Man, Adam. Many Traditionalist Catholics (and "conservative" Vatican II sect members) read the Bible literally in every verse, like a Fundamentalist Protestant. This is in reaction to the Modernist exegetes who reduce the Bible to little more than a collection of fairy tales stripped of any and all historical and supernatural character. This causes them to make false assertions, like claiming you must believe the universe was created in exactly six days, and each day lasting exactly 24 hours in duration. This is the position of the "conservative" Vatican II sect members who run the Kolbe Center. They also teach the body of Adam was not developed, geocentrism is true, and a 6,000 year-old Earth are all "dogma." (See kolbecenter.org).
The point of contention to be addressed here concerns the denial that a Catholic may believe that the body of the First Man was the result of any type of development. Cries of "evolution," and "blasphemy" will abound. Yet what the Church teaches is not what these new "Catholic fundamentalists" insist you must believe. My purpose here is to show what may (not must) be believed, and what may not. I leave it to the reader to do further research and draw their own conclusion as to what their position will be within the limitations set forth by Holy Mother Church.
The Role of Theologians
I have written about the role of theologians several times before. It is very important to understand, so I reproduce the role of the theologians once more. If your realize their importance, you can ship this section---Introibo
What, exactly, constitutes an approved theologian of the Church?
The book by Fr. Reginald-Maria Schultes OP, De Ecclesia Catholica: Praelectiones Apologeticae [Apologetic Lectures on the Catholic Church], 2nd. ed., Paris: Lethielleux 1931, was used by priest-students studying for doctoral degrees at Pontifical Universities. Fr. Schultes himself taught at the world-renowned Angelicum University. A theologian is thus defined by him (and recognized by the Church) as "learned men who after the time of the Church Fathers scientifically taught sacred doctrine in the Church."
The pre-Vatican II theologians were all clerics (i.e., priests and bishops) who received either a Doctorate in Sacred Theology (STD) or a Doctorate in Canon Law (JCD). The latter are known as canonists and apply the proper theological principles to the Sacred Canons to ascertain the correct meaning and application of each Canon to each unique situation. Every theologian had to defend and publish a dissertation before the Board of Examiners of a Pontifical University, and it had to bear an Imprimatur and Nihil Obstat declaring the work free from all error against faith and morals. The breadth and depth of theological knowledge enjoyed by theologians was vastly superior to both laymen and the average priest or bishop because of the excellence of their training.
Theologians are said to be "approved" at least insofar as (a) they manifest a certain eminence in doctrine in their writings and (b) display orthodoxy at least to the extent recognized by the Church that their writings are used by the faithful and the theological schools, with the knowledge of (and with no opposition from) the Magisterium of the Church. (See, e.g,. theologian Salaverri, Sacrae Theologiae Summa, IB, [1955]). The doctorate may only be dispensed by the Roman Pontiff if the cleric is found by the Vicar of Christ to be highly proficient in both Canon Law and Sacred Theology; such is the case with bishops as well (See 1917 Code of Canon Law, Canon 331; see also canonists Abbo and Hannon, The Sacred Canons, [1952], 1:357-358).
Theologians demonstrate, and do not determine Catholic doctrine. Theologians do not determine whether some doctrine is de fide or some other theological note, like "certain." They merely demonstrate, or manifest, or give witness, that a particular doctrine is Church teaching and to what degree. They prove their assertions with convincing arguments, so that when theologians reach an objective, morally unanimous consensus, we must accept such conclusions as belonging to the Faith. According to Schultes (cited above), theologians are witnesses not only to whether a doctrine is defined, but also to its meaning.
Theologian Fenton's The Concept of Sacred Theology makes clear that Councils, encyclicals, etc., are the raw data the theologian uses for his work. Theology is not simply quoting Church documents, any more than law is not simply quoting the Supreme Court.
The Teaching of the Church on Biblical Interpretation Regarding Genesis
When it comes to "the plain meaning" of Scripture, those untrained in Catholic exegesis fall into serious errors. According to the eminent theologian Van Noort:
Furthermore, even in those truths which the Ordinary and Universal Magisterium unmistakably inculcates, there is sometimes room for questioning whether all the elements of that teaching are meant to be inculcated with equal force. For example, the following doctrines have always been unmistakably proposed by the Ordinary Magisterium: that God created our first parents by forming their bodies from the slime of the Earth and from the rib of the man; that Adam sinned in tasting the forbidden fruit at the urging of the serpent; that God in punishment for mankind's sins caused a deluge over the entire Earth; that Christ will come one day as the Judge upon the clouds of Heaven, etc.
Do you think that the definitive intention of the Magisterium bears with equal force upon the mode of the bodily formation and on the very fact of creation? With equal force upon upon the external description of the sin of our first parents and upon the sin itself? With equal force upon the universality of the flood and upon the manifestation of Divine Justice? With equal force upon the circumstances of the heavenly spectacle and upon the actual return of the Judge? Even upon a priori grounds an affirmative answer would have little probability to it, seeing that the circumstances described contribute either nothing at all or very little to religion. Actually, if one checks history, he will find at least a number of the circumstances enumerated have been called into doubt by one or another of the Fathers of the Church, or by excellent theologians, without their teaching ever being considered in the slightest heretical...
Actually the immense flowering of Catholic biblical research during the past fifty years has done much to eliminate unnecessary bewilderment on the part of the ordinary Bible reader trying to reconcile his own reading of the "obvious" meaning of Scripture with the findings of modern science. This bewilderment has been caused by an almost total ignorance of what is meant by "scriptural inerrancy," "inspiration," and "revelation."
It has been further nurtured by a failure to enter sympathetically into the mentality of the ancient Semitic world, a lack of knowledge of ancient languages and history, a total unawareness of literary genres, and a lack of theological insight into what in the Bible pertains to "matters of faith and morals" and what is merely "accidentally inspired."
Such readers, lacking both biblical and theological training, when coming across ancient cosmological viewpoints, unconsciously reflected by the sacred writers, have taken such viewpoints to be revelation by God on matters of science. Hence, a whole rash of unnecessary problems, concordism and the like. (See Dogmatic Theology, 3:223-225 [1960 English edition]; Emphasis in bold and italics from the original text--bold, italicized, and underlined is mine. N.B. Theologian Van Noort died in 1946. His original Latin edition was published with full ecclesiastical approbation prior to his death).
In reference to true biblical scholars, Pope Pius XII condemns those who would oppose them simply because they propose a new solution to a difficulty:
Let all other sons of the Church bear in mind that the efforts of these resolute laborers in the vineyard of the Lord should be judged not only with equity and justice, but also with the greatest charity; all, moreover, should abhor that intemperate zeal which imagines that whatever is new should for that very reason be opposed or suspected. (See Divino Afflante Spiritu [1943]; Emphasis mine).
Several Principles of Interpretation
The Pontifical Biblical Commission in 1909, affirmed that Genesis teaches the following facts about creation which are to be accepted by all Catholics. The decree was promulgated by Pope St. Pius X.
...the creation of all things which was accomplished by God at the beginning of time; the special creation of man; the formation of the first woman from man; the unity of the human race; the original happiness of our first parents in a state of justice, integrity, and immortality; the divine command laid upon man to prove his obedience; the transgression of that divine command at the instigation of the devil under the form of a serpent; the fall of our first parents from their primitive state of innocence; and the promise of a future Redeemer. (See Acta Apostolis Sedis, 1 [1909 Pontifical Biblical Commission], pages 567-69).
Day of Rest (Genesis 2:3): Moses employed a period of a week for the Creation to impress upon the Jews the fact that the seventh day of the week was holy and a day of rest. Catholic exegetes [interpreters] are unanimous in rejecting the old theory that God accomplished everything in the space of six twenty-four hour periods. (See theologian Cevetello, Getting to Know the Bible, [1957], pg. 64).
On June 30, 1909, the Pontifical Biblical Commission (as above) issued a decree answering eight (8) questions about the Book of Genesis. The decree was approved by His Holiness, Pope St. Pius X, Foe of Modernism. The answers to the first three questions upholds the overall historical character of the first three chapters of Genesis, however the last two questions are instructive as to the mind of the Church in Biblical exegesis ("interpretation").
Question # 7: "Whether, since it was not the intention of the sacred author, when writing the first chapter of Genesis, to teach us in a scientific manner the innermost nature of visible things, and to present the complete order of creation but rather to furnish his people with a popular account, such as the common parlance of that age allowed, one, namely, adopted to the senses and to man's intelligence, we are strictly and always bound, when interpreting these chapters to seek for scientific exactitude of expression?" Answer: In the negative.
Question # 8: "Whether the word yom ('day'), which is used in the first chapter of Genesis to describe and distinguish the six days, may be taken in its strict sense as the natural day, or in a less strict sense as signifying a certain space of time; and whether free discussion of this question is permitted to interpreters?" Answer: In the affirmative.
We see that in the response to question # 7, we are not bound to treat Genesis as some sort of science textbook. Question # 8 clearly shows that we are not bound to believe in six literal days of 24 hours each in the creation account as theologian Cevetello notes. God created the universe in six yom, or time periods, the exact duration of which may be much more than 24 hours. Nor is it necessary to believe in a 6,000 year old Earth. Modern science and Genesis do not contradict each other.
Formation of Eve (Genesis 2:21-22): According to a decree of the [Pontifical] Biblical Commission, the doctrine of the formation of the first Woman from Man must be maintained. However, the exact way in which it took place remains a mystery about which you are able to say nothing; for only that One knows who was responsible for Creation. (See Cevetello, Ibid, pgs. 65-66).
From the above we can know the Church teaches us as truth:
- the Creation of the world ex nihil (out of nothing) by God at the beginning of space-time
- the special creation of the First Man
- the special creation of the First Woman from the First Man
- the souls of human beings are created immediately ex nihil by God
- the entire human race descends from a single man and a single woman; our First Parents
- our First Parents were in a state of Original Justice and by disobedience brought us Original Sin
- Original Sin is passed down by being a descendant of the First Man (Adam)
- Original Sin came about at the instigation of Satan
- God promised to send a Redeemer Who is the Lord Jesus Christ
Did Pope Pius XII Make a Mistake in Allowing Study on the Possible Evolution of the Human Body of Adam?
Those who think the idea that the body of Adam was formed from pre-existing living matter and developed to receive a soul is heretical, denounce Pope Pius XII for allowing it to be studied, as he wrote in his encyclical Humani Generis of 1950. They usually advance three lines of argumentation:
1. His Holiness was wrong to allow the study of a subject that was settled, much like Montini (Paul VI) was wrong to allow study on the morality of artificial contraception; The Church Fathers were unanimous against the idea of evolution of the body.
2. It was only permitting study, and in no way gives any real credence to the idea of the evolution of the body, which is from godless Darwinian scientists.
3. The idea of evolution of the first human body is of recent development under the influence of Modernism. It would necessitate death existing before the Fall of Adam which is absurd.
On The Contrary:
Response to #1: The subject was NOT settled, the Church never having pronounced on the subject, and there was vigorous debate between theologians. The Kolbe Center, run by "conservative" members of the Vatican II sect, will twist the decisions on the Pontifical Biblical Commission to make it fit their Protestant interpretation of every word of Genesis being literal.
The Kolbe Center claims none of the Fathers held that the universe is ancient, so that opinion is not permissible. (Tell that to Pope St. Pius X!). The Pontifical Biblical Commission, in question six of its decision of 1909, says that we should follow the example of the Fathers in making allegorical and prophetical interpretations, after having determined the literal and historical sense. This means that it is perfectly acceptable to make allegorical interpretations, not that we have to follow the Fathers in all of their interpretations. The Commission declared:
...in interpreting those passages of these chapters [of Genesis] that the Fathers and Doctors have interpreted in divers ways without leaving anything definite or certain, it is permitted, subject to the judgment of the Church and the analogy of faith, to follow and defend that opinion which each one has prudently found correct.
There is Magisterial authority that the Fathers do not present a doctrinally-binding, unanimous consensus on the first chapters of Genesis. The Kolbe Center and like-minded Traditionalists claim a binding consensus of the Fathers on a plethora of biblical teachings. Yet, in his encyclical Divino Afflante Spiritu, Pope Pius XII taught:
...there are but few texts whose sense has been defined by the authority of the Church, nor are those more numerous about which the teaching of the Holy Fathers is unanimous. There remain therefore many things, and of the greatest importance, in the discussion and exposition of which the skill and genius of Catholic commentators may and ought to be freely exercised, so that each may contribute his part to the advantage of all, to the continued progress of the sacred doctrine and to the defense and honor of the Church. (para. #47; Emphasis mine).
Pope Pius XII also teaches that the first chapters of Genesis are not among those "few texts" settled by the Fathers of the Church:
Moreover we may rightly and deservedly hope that our time also can contribute something towards the deeper and more accurate interpretation of Sacred Scripture. For not a few things, especially in matters pertaining to history, were scarcely at all or not fully explained by the commentators of past ages, since they lacked almost all the information which was needed for their clearer exposition. How difficult for the Fathers themselves, and indeed well nigh unintelligible, were certain passages is shown, among other things, by the oft-repeated efforts of many of them to explain the first chapters of Genesis;...(Ibid, para. #31; Emphasis mine).
Therefore, to analogize the study of the development of the first human body to Montini's allowing study on the subject of birth control is fallacious because birth control is settled, but not the mode of the production of Adam's body.
Response to #2:
We must first distinguish and reject Darwinian evolution ("DE"). DE assumes as its dogma that change must be unguided and without purpose. It rules out a priori the existence of God. It also excludes in principle the idea of a sudden origin of a new kind of living thing through non-living material (slime of the Earth), or through multiple simultaneous mutation, or through large-scale reorganizations of cells, or any other event that could take place only through the presence of a Designer/Creator God. God can choose to work gradually or instantaneously, it is up to Him. Romans 11:34 reminds us: "For who hath known the mind of the Lord? Or who hath been His counselor?" DE is to be rejected. That is godless, not the idea that God permitted and guided the development of the first human body.
The study was permitted because it is an open question. There is no definitive teaching. Pope Pius XII does not endorse the development of the human body, butt neither does he censure it or disapprove of it in any way. Hence, the study of the question.
Response to #3:
The idea of the development of the human body is by no means recent, as the teachings of the theologians will demonstrate. Does the Church forbid the idea that death of animals and plants only happened after the Fall? No. The argument against bodily development is that there would be death involved with plants and brutes prior to Original Sin. Original Sin brought human death, conceded; that it brought death of plants and animals; denied.
Going back as far as 1847, a Protestant geologist, Edward Hitchcock, wisely saw nothing wrong with positing non-human death before Adam and Eve. He wrote:
Not only geology,but zoology and comparative anatomy, teach us that death among the inferior animals did not result from the Fall of Man, but from the original constitution given them by their Creator. One large class of animals, the carnivores, have organs expressly intended for destroying other classes for food. [Even herbivores] must have destroyed a multitude of insects, of which several species inhabit almost every species of plant, [not to mention the destruction of] millions of animalcula [microscopic organisms], which abound in many of the fluids which animals drink, and even in the air which they breathe.
In short, death could not be excluded from the world, without an entire change in the constitution and course of nature; and such a change we have no reason to suppose, from the Mosaic [Genesis] account, took place when man fell. (See Hitchcock, Elementary Geology, 8th edition [1847], p. 299ff).
What Pope Pius XII actually taught:
...the Teaching Authority of the Church does not forbid that, in conformity with the present state of human sciences and sacred theology, research and discussions, on the part of men experienced in both fields, take place with regard to the doctrine of evolution, in as far as it inquires into the origin of the human body as coming from pre-existent and living matter -- for the Catholic faith obliges us to hold that souls are immediately created by God. However, this must be done in such a way that the reasons for both opinions, that is, those favorable and those unfavorable to evolution, be weighed and judged with the necessary seriousness, moderation and measure, and provided that all are prepared to submit to the judgment of the Church…
When, however, there is question of another conjectural opinion, namely polygenism, the children of the Church by no means enjoy such liberty. For the faithful cannot embrace that opinion which maintains that either after Adam there existed on this earth true men who did not take their origin through natural generation from him as from the first parent of all, or that Adam represents a certain number of first parents. Now it is in no way apparent how such an opinion can be reconciled with that which the sources of revealed truth and the documents of the Teaching Authority of the Church propose with regard to original sin, which proceeds from a sin actually committed by an individual Adam and which, through generation, is passed on to all and is in everyone as his own. (See Humani Generis para. #36 & 37; Emphasis mine).
The pope did not rule out the creation of the body through evolution and he upheld the necessity of the belief in the immediate creation of the soul by God, as well as the necessary rejection of polygenism.
The Teaching of the Church
The approved theologians are clear that the opinion of a human body that developed and was not created immediately can be (not must be) held:
Theologian Sagues:
But whether with regard to his [Adam] body he is in some way from a brute (but not without the special intervention of God) is an open question, which has not yet been clearly and certainly explained by the investigations of natural science, and which will have to be solved with certainty perhaps in the future with the help of faith and guided by revelation. (See Sacrae Theologiae Summa IIB, [1955], pg.236; Emphasis in original).
Theologian Hunter (d. 1896):
Others think it possible that close study of the visible world, which we have called a divinely composed commentary upon the Written Word may possibly give good ground for believing that the apparent meaning of the Mosaic narrative is not the true meaning, and that the body of the first Man was prepared by the operation of natural causes, without any extraordinary action of God. These therefore suspend their judgement, and await further light upon the subject, whether it come to them by a pronouncement of the Church, or by the progress of natural science. (See Outlines of Dogmatic Theology, [1895], pg. 420; Emphasis mine).
According to theologian Tanquerey (d.1932):
It is de fide that our first parents in regard to body and in regard to soul were created by God: it is certain that their souls were created immediately by God; the opinion, once common, which asserts that even man’s body was formed immediately by God has now fallen into controversy…As long as the spiritual origin of the human soul is correctly preserved, the differences of body between man and ape do not oppose the origin of the human body from animality…Theologian Ott says similarly:
The soul of the first man was created immediately by God out of nothing. As regards the body, its immediate formation from inorganic stuff by God cannot be maintained with certainty. Fundamentally, the possibility exists that God breathed the spiritual soul into an organic stuff, that is, into an originally animal body…
The Encyclical Humani Generis of Pius XII (1950) lays down that the question of the origin of the human body is open to free research by natural scientists and theologians…
Against… the view of certain modern scientists, according to which the various races are derived from several separated stems (polygenism), the Church teaches that the first human beings, Adam and Eve, are the progenitors of the whole human race (monogenism). The teaching of the unity of the human race is not, indeed, a dogma, but it is a necessary pre-supposition of the dogma of Original Sin and Redemption (See Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, [1955], pgs. 94-96; Emphasis mine).
Thanks for clearing things up ! It should be an automatic reflex to ask what the Church teaches on a specific question, because she is our Mother and Teacher. By separating themselves from the Church, Protestants make the mistake of thinking they can understand Revelation on their own, and we see that some Catholics make the same mistake. And we can also better respond to those who oppose science to faith, because we see that the two are not opposed.
ReplyDeleteSimon,
DeleteAbsolutely! The One True Church has nothing to fear from science, because both science and theology are sources of knowledge that come to us from the One True God.
God Bless,
---Introibo
I understand you can believe either way. However, you are adamant on showing us how we should all consider the big bang theory you subscribe to and the billion year old earth.
ReplyDeleteAnon 6:33,
DeleteHe is adamant on showing how it's a Protestant trap to subscribe to one way and in turn make it into dogma. Ever heard of the Arc Encounter or the Creation Museums in Kentucky? They are neat and fun places to visit and even display many good points but nevertheless are Protestant places founded by Mr. Hamm (a Protestant minister) who makes Creationism dogma. Protestants aren't reliable because they don't believe in the True Church.
Introibo quoted Pope Pius XII who was careful about the matter in Humani Generis and other theologians explaining the origins of Man. I personally believe in a young earth, that man has only been around for about 6-10 thousand years starting from Adam, etc. but the point is I cannot say my viewpoint is dogma.
Lee
Lee,
DeleteThank you, my friend! That was exactly my point. Neither view is dogma. Consider both sides and you can believe either way.
God Bless,
---Introibo
Despite its flaws, the Kolbe Center does a great job of looking at, and refuting the contemporary evolutionary claims from a scientific angle. For instance, one article I read explained that, in one evolution journal, over a period of 1 year, different researchers had published pieces that extinguished all the "ancestors" of Homo sapiens. Essentially, each different evolutionist argued that a particular "species" of Homo fell within the general range of Homo sapiens, meaning that when all the different researchers had their conclusions combined, there was no "ancestor" of Homo sapiens left, just the emergence of Homo sapiens in and around a specific geographical region, between 1m and 100k years ago (depending on the dating system used). It may be presumptuous, but it does have some good points.
ReplyDelete@anon9:37
DeleteYou are correct that the Kolbe Center makes good points on certain matters. However, I warn everyone that they are entering a dangerous territory. "Most Holy Family Monastery" run by Fred and Bobby Dimond are correct about sedevacantism and make many good/valid points.
Souls have been trapped in error who went there seeking information of the sedevacantist position and wound up ensnared in one of their deadly errors--most especially Feeneyism. Let all beware!
God Bless,
---Introibo
I learned a lot about sedevacantism from the Dimond brothers' website, but now I know they are heretics. Thank God I discovered this blog and Novus Ordo Watch !
DeleteSimon,
DeleteI'm glad God was able to use my blog to bring you to the One True Church!
God Bless,
---Introibo
I have read a number of your articles and have noticed you are sometimes quite critical of Gen Z, mostly as it relates to the growing numbers of people from this group who hold dissident right positions. Also, as a side note, you reject the strict interpretation of Catholic Dogma by Traditional Catholics as they are infallibly pronounced by Popes, i.e. Salvation Dogma, and try to insert exceptions based on man made theories that come from fallible theologians and fallible sources who are not in constant agreement on certain issues but only common agreement for certain periods of Church History. This is not the UOM. Anyway, I have not come across any material on your blog that assesses the general shortcomings of The Boomers and Gen X. I believe you are from one of those two generations so maybe there could be some bias. Perhaps you can point me to some of those articles if they exist.
ReplyDeleteNow, I don’t think blaming a specific generation for the world’s problems and the current state of The Church is helpful since we can all point to certain time periods and give our opinions on how things could have been handled better. We can all point to Nero, The French Revolution, The Bolshevik Revolution and Vatican II and all agree that these are horrific and troubling revolutionary periods in history. We can discuss the causes and aftermath of these events too. And while many good people existed in all generations. There are many more that were of bad will throughout the centuries who went along to get along and who rejected The Divine and Eternal Truth. And certainly, many who are part of The Boomer generation are not exempt from this fact. They have quite a bit to answer for as it relates to the current state of Western Civilization and their revolt against The Catholic Moral Order. I don’t think you would necessarily disagree. There are many places we can start but the main area of criticism would be the legacy of cultural rot and decadence, that didn’t start, but primarily took off to a whole new level of moral corruption during the 1960s and was then inherited by the next few generations. Again, all periods in history can be analyzed and questions about what went wrong could be brought forward, but I bring this all up since it seems that you are often arguing inside the anti white/anti historical narrative setup by very wicked people so that well intentioned people are forced to argue for traditional values from a position of weakness because they are arguing from inside the confines of a story setup by Antiwhite AntiCatholic, AntiTruth, Antihuman monsters. And if someone of European ancestry defends their White Catholic Identity, and it even applies to Non white Catholics who defend The Truth and Catholic Moral Order, they will then be called vicious slurs by the wicked among us. So you never actually call out the vectors of spiritual disease Satan uses to bring about chaos and depravity and moral corruption and greed in this world. Instead you talk about Gen Z and use dubious historians and others writing from the perspective of the historical victors instead of sources from the vanquished and revisionists to explain historical events like WW2. This shows a lack of fortitude.
Your comment is a perfect example of what is wrong with many a youngster today calling himself a Traditionalist: your White vs. Non-White dichotomy, WW2 revisionism, being suspicious of anything considered "mainstream".
DeleteYou're willing to put your pet theories before Church teaching. In all sincerity, ask yourself if you would rather submit to Leon Degrelle than Pius XII.
Be very careful decrying historical revisionism. Catholic apologetics by and large consists of large doses of historical revisionism.
DeleteGjergj Kastrioti,
DeleteJoanna is correct. Most people don't understand what the phrase "historical revisionism" means. Catholic apologetics by no means "consists of large doses of historical revisionism." That is something we can debate when I do a post on said subject later this year.
---Introibo
@anon2:56
DeleteI will address your Feeneyism below in my response to anon4:31.
1. I am a Gen Xer. It is true that ALL generations have good and bad people in them; mine is no exception. What I have found in many (not all) Gen Zers, is an apparent psychological need to be extreme. If you are Gen Z, you are a perfect case in point. If you are not Gen Z, you certainly have the outlook of many of them.
2. You write "I bring this all up since it seems that you are often arguing inside the anti white/anti historical narrative setup by very wicked people so that well intentioned people are forced to argue for traditional values from a position of weakness because they are arguing from inside the confines of a story setup by Antiwhite AntiCatholic, AntiTruth, Antihuman monsters."
Reply: How am I (a white man) "anti-white"? The fact that I denounce Adolph Hitler for the occult, anti-Catholic mass murderer he was? News flash: God recognizes ONE race--the human race. Jesus Christ died so that all people of all skin colors could go to Heaven. You claim to have read "a number of your [my] articles." I would like you to point out where, in any of my posts, I denigrate ANY race, let alone Caucasians.
3. You write, "Instead you talk about Gen Z and use dubious historians and others writing from the perspective of the historical victors instead of sources from the vanquished and revisionists to explain historical events like WW2. This shows a lack of fortitude."
Reply: The sources (historians) I have used are solid. Eric Kurlander has impeccable credentials which include an Ivy League education at Harvard, and peer reviewed praise. His sources are as solid as his training. He exposes the occult of Hitler and the Nazis quite well. You may read his CV here:
https://www.stetson.edu/other/faculty/eric-kurlander.php
History has a definite methodology, and simply because something is written by "the vanquished" doesn't automatically make it true. This is part of the need for extreme "only being outside the mainstream makes something true" mentality. There was nothing more mainstream than being a Catholic pre-Vatican II. If only we could get those times back again! Believing Elvis faked his death in 1977 and is still alive is outside the mainstream. So is the moon landing being faked. So is the Earth being flat and at the center of the universe. And Bigfoot--don't forget Bigfoot! Do you believe in those things too? (Sadly, you probably do).
I do not suffer a lack of fortitude. It is you, my young, sad fellow, who suffers from a lack of critical thinking skills.
I'll be praying for your conversion.
---Introibo
“How am I a white man, antiwhite?” Does the ditch digger have to love digging ditches? Does the red head always love being a red head? You are a GenXer who has been corrupted by the antiwhite narrative that is all around that you but you are too blind to because you have been infected with a psychological mind toxin through social conditioning which teaches you to despise your own people in order to “virtue signal” to people who despise you. Wake up!
DeleteJoanna S.
DeleteRace differences are real. This is just a scientific fact. People like you have your head in the sand and need to wake up to the horrors of multiculturalism, the invasion of savages from The Third World into once pristine White Communities, and the glorification of black criminality. Why don’t you do some research on black on white crime in America and in South Africa, or how about no go zones in Europe, and the marauding Muslim gangs over there. There are measurable average differences in intelligence among the races, some are more vulnerable to different diseases. Different races also build different societies. Just look at Stockholm before migrants arrived and compare it to a place like Haiti or Botswana or Mexico. But keep “virtue signaling” and saying stupid slogans “like we all bleed red” and see if the world you live your children, who will be surrounded by tribalistic anti white groups will find themselves in a nice place to live and flourish. People like you are the problem.
@anon@12:10
DeleteI asked for any citation to prove I was against any race. All you could provide was...nothing but a rant. I'm not surprised. A Hitler fan boy doesn't have much going on in terms of brain activity. You idolize a mass murdering occultist. Your rant to Joanna further shows you want a "Master Race" like the despot you worship.
Don't dare call yourself a "Catholic" or a "Traditionalist" in any sense of those words. People like Joanna are not the problem; it's miscreants like you.
---Introibo
You just keep making pseudo-intellectual and straw man arguments. “The Master Race” straw man argument coming from a Crypto Jew who lauds wicked men like Richard Cushing. How many souls did Richard Cushing destroy? How many souls were led astray by the modernists you seem to think are great Catholic Scholars because they existed and wrote a few years before Vatican II, many who participated and planned Vatican II? You are no different than The Novus Ordites on the Salvation Dogma. Also loving your own kind or having in group preferences for people who share common roots and experiences with you does not mean you have disdain for other racial demographics. Someone who peacefully supports White Well Being in a world that is vehemently antiwhite is a moral imperative. It’s time to free yourself from the modernist antiwhite virus that has infected your mind like many other people who have been conditioned to think a certain way out of fear of being called antiwhite slurs like “Nazi” and “racist”. Your cowardice is appalling and your message is an abomination and is why the younger generations have no interest in your milquetoast, Fox News, Normie takes on politics and other important issues. We can all be grateful that very few know who you are or have come across your anti historical ramblings or your fabrication of a pseudo magisterium to explain why someone like Richard Dawkins might actually be a Catholic, “We just don’t know” , “We can’t judge” is what we hear from the false traditionalists. You are a scandal to the One True Catholic Faith and a scandal to your White ancestors who built western civilization only so people like you could arrogantly and foolishly destroy it.
DeleteDear Adolph Jr.,
DeleteHow many souls did Richard Cushing destroy?
I don't know. Probably less than the child-abusing cult leader Leonard Feeney whose poison continues to be pushed by the likes of you---a Fred and Bobby sock puppet.
Thank you for writing this to me! It (a) let's me know I'm doing something right to get heretics upset, and (b) exposes what you're all about to my readers so they know how it is really poison to the soul.
---Introibo
Comment on Boomers and Moral Corruption Continued:
ReplyDeleteThe Legacy of Boomers - Woodstock and The Hippie Revolution, astronomical national debt, the stock market casino and this vacuous notion that unfettered free markets and this fascination with “The American Way” and profits over the common good are somehow the highest ideal. Also the support of all of the unjust interventionist wars to spread American cultural depravity and military bases around the world are also a product of The Boomer/Gen X political outlook to one degree or another, along with Hart Celler and unrestrained immigration from the third world. This degenerate libertarian mentality that is pervasive among the boomers, many who you might see driving around in their Hawaiian shirts in their $80,000 convertibles, with their gray pony tails waving in the wind without a care in the world just shows how out of touch many of them are with the problems The West faces. Another political leaning among Boomers, would be this Trotskyite Neoconservative Israel first world view, coupled with Americanism. And there are many more examples of this but the point is that your tone and perspective on many issues is out of touch with the problems society faces today.
@anon2:59
DeleteYou mean I'm out of touch with Feeneyite Hitler apologists? Deo gratias!
---Introibo
I mean a Cushingite, Modernist, who is a mouthpiece for The ADL and is stuck in the antiwhite narrative.
Delete@anon12:00
DeleteNewsflash! Abp. Richard Cushing did not "invent" BOD. He had a wrong notion, which Leonard Feeney opposed with an opposite error. I wonder if St. Alphonsus was a "Cushingite" LOL
---Introibo
Perhaps you heretically and blasphemous believe Pope Eugene IV who infallibly taught The Salvation Dogma and The Necessity of Water Baptism to be saved or that Saint Gregory Nazianzen who explicitly rejected BoD were “Feeneyites”.
Delete@anon4:59
DeleteNo, because they correctly believed that water Baptism is necessary as the ordinary way of salvation, but admitting extraordinary ways. St. Gregory, as I cite below, taught Baptism of Blood.
---Introibo
What is quite clear in this essay and many of your other writings you have published is that you are a modernist claiming to oppose modernism. There is no interpretation of Dogmatic statements of the infallible Extraordinary Magisterium.
ReplyDeletePope Pius IX, First Vatican Council:
“Hence, also, that understanding of its sacred dogmas must be perpetually retained, which Holy Mother Church has once declared; and there must never be a recession from that meaning under the specious name of a deeper understanding.”
Furthermore the dogmatic canons are the proximate rule of Faith for Catholics not fallible theories put forth by theologians that might have gained acceptance during a certain period of Church History. Of course all the Saints and Doctors of The Church are worthy of our reverence and devotion for their many holy teachings and contributions to The Faith but they were not, and could not, be free from error since they are not the Extraordinary Magisterium. And The UOM does not apply if a theological opinion was held by a handful of theologians for a certain period of time. The teaching must be universal and constant. The UOM can’t contradict The Extraordinary Magisterium. Also, Geocentrism was taught de fide but later Heliocentrism gained support. Also most theologians taught The Arian Heresy during a certain period. Is that the UOM? Obviously not. The early Church fathers didn’t teach BoD, and at least four Popes dogmatically declared The Necessity of Water Baptism and being a visible member of The Church to be saved. One is either in the Church or Outside the Church, and one can’t be united to The Soul of The Church without being united to The Body since they are not separate and The Church is not invisible where someone can be invisibly united to it because they are “nice” people in false religions. BoD adherents believe a Talmudic Jew, a Jihadist, a Charismatic Protestant twirling around snakes, or a Witch Doctor may actually be a Traditional Catholic even if they reject Christ. This is just beyond wicked. It’s not possible for someone who is externally Non-Catholic to be internally Catholic. This is a sentimental theory of men based on the false arguments of “sincerity” and “being a nice person” and “inculpable ignorance” could save your soul. You listen to five “traditional” priests give an explanation of BoD you get five different answers. It’s incoherent and a mockery of John 3:5 and started off as a theological opinion further elucidated by Saint Thomas and Saint Alphonsus but what the BoD theory has become today is totally different and modernist and is a complete contradiction to Catholic Dogma.
And, yet, the Good Thief was saved, the Limbo of the Patriarchs was emptied.
DeleteGod’s justice is always just.
The good thief died under The Old Covenant, and not under The New Law. The necessity of water baptism was instituted by Jesus after His resurrection. So, yes, God’s infinite Justice and Mercy saved the good thief before The New Covenant was made binding and Catholic Dogma teaches the necessity of water baptism to be saved after this was Divinely revealed and commanded by Christ. It is the eternal unchanging Truth. Our Lord operates in accordance with Divine Revelation, He cannot deceive nor be deceived.
Delete@anon4:31
DeleteI can't thank you enough for coming here to comment. You expose to my readers how sad and uninformed a Feeneyite really is and allows for the Truth of the One True Church to shine forth! This will be a full response.
1. You write, “What is quite clear in this essay and many of your other writings you have published is that you are a modernist claiming to oppose modernism.
Reply: No, I am a Traditionalist Catholic who hold to the Integral Catholic Faith as was taught prior to Vatican II. I oppose Modernism. You have no clue what Modernism is, or what Catholicism is, for you are a Feeneyite heretic taking your talking points from the playbook of Fred and Bobby Dimond, as I will now demonstrate.
2. You write, “There is no interpretation of Dogmatic statements of the infallible Extraordinary Magisterium.
Pope Pius IX, First Vatican Council:
“Hence, also, that understanding of its sacred dogmas must be perpetually retained, which Holy Mother Church has once declared; and there must never be a recession from that meaning under the specious name of a deeper understanding.”
Reply: This is the “plain meaning” Feeneyite fallacy. Feeneyites, despise the teachings of the theologians, insisting that anyone can read "the plain meaning" of the words. In a similar fashion, Protestants reject the Magisterium on the grounds that they can "read the Bible for themselves." A Feeneyite will say, "Then we need theologians to interpret those interpretations, and so on," contending an infinite regress. The citation to the Vatican Council of 1870 states that doctrines must always be understood in the same sense as the Church understood when declared.
That doesn't mean "read with plain meaning." To use the example of a criminal trial, "not guilty" has always been understood as meaning the prosecution did not carry the burden of proof against the defendant in a criminal trial. It does not mean that the "plain meaning of the words not guilty are the same as innocent." The bishops are highly trained and educated men who use scholastic terminology not readily accessible to the average layman. That's why the Church orders catechisms for adults, such as the Catechism of the Council of Trent, to explain in layman's terms the technical decisions. If the "plain meaning rule" were true, it would render adult catechisms superfluous, you would just read the Council documents. The fact that the Church gives numerous catechisms means the teachings need explanation, otherwise the Church would be doing something for centuries that was absurd.
CONTINUED BELOW
3. You write, “Furthermore the dogmatic canons are the proximate rule of Faith for Catholics not fallible theories put forth by theologians that might have gained acceptance during a certain period of Church History. Of course all the Saints and Doctors of The Church are worthy of our reverence and devotion for their many holy teachings and contributions to The Faith but they were not, and could not, be free from error since they are not the Extraordinary Magisterium. And The UOM does not apply if a theological opinion was held by a handful of theologians for a certain period of time. The teaching must be universal and constant.”
DeleteReply: This is the “denial of the Universal and Ordinary Magisterium and how it operates” Feeneyite fallacy. As the Vatican Council of 1870 dogmatically taught:
“Further, all those things are to be believed with divine and catholic faith which are contained in the Word of God, written or handed down, and which the Church, either by a solemn judgment, or by her ordinary and universal Magisterium, proposes for belief as having been Divinely-revealed.”(Dei Filius).
The Extraordinary Magisterium is expressed by (1) solemn definitions ex cathedra promulgated by either the Roman Pontiff or an Ecumenical Council approved by the Roman Pontiff; (2) professions of faith decreed by the Church; (3) theological censures contrary to heretical propositions. (See theologian Tanquerey, A Manual of Dogmatic Theology, [1959], 1:174).
The UOM is explained according to theologian Scheeben: “The Criteria or means of knowing Catholic truth may be easily gathered from the principles...nearly all set forth in the Brief Tuas Libenter, addressed by Pius IX to the Archbishop of Munich. “ (See A Manual of Catholic Theology 1:89). Pope Pius IX wrote, “For even if it were a matter concerning that subjection which is to be manifested by an act of divine faith, nevertheless, it would not have to be limited to those matters which have been defined by express decrees of the ecumenical Councils, or of the Roman Pontiffs and of this See, but would have to be extended also to those matters which are handed down as divinely revealed by the ordinary teaching power of the whole Church spread throughout the world, and therefore, by universal and common consent are held by Catholic theologians to belong to faith. “(See Tuas Libenter [1863], DZ 1683).
Canon 1323 of the 1917 Code of Canon Law further gives proof of the belief of the Church regarding the UOM and imposes on the faithful the obligation of consent. The eminent canonist Augustine writes, “The universal and ordinary Magisterium consists of the entire episcopate, according to the constitution and order defined by Christ, i.e., all the bishops of the universal Church, dependently on the Roman Pontiff...What the universal and approved practice and discipline proposes as connected with faith and morals must be believed. And what the Holy Fathers and the theologians hold unanimously as a matter of faith and morals, is also de fide.” (See A Commentary on Canon Law, pg.327).
Approved theologians therefore, hold great importance in the Church. As theologian Tanquerey teaches, “They [theologians] are not to be esteemed lightly no matter what the Protestants, Modernists or other adversaries have alleged against them.” (Ibid, pg.180). Hence, those who deny the importance of the teachings of approved theologians are Protestants, Modernists, and other enemies of the Church, not Catholics.
CONTINUED BELOW
Objections anticipated and answered:
DeleteA. Theologians are not infallible. Theologian Scheeben teaches, Although the assistance of the Holy Ghost is not directly promised to theologians, nevertheless the assistance promised to the Church requires that He should prevent them as a body from falling into error; otherwise the Faithful who follow them would all be lead astray. The consent of the theologians implies the consent of the Episcopate, according to St. Augustine's dictum, 'Not to resist an error is to approve of it---not to defend a truth is to reject it.' (Scheeben, Ibid, pg. 83; Emphasis mine).
B. We only need to follow the infallible teachings of the Church. Pope Pius IX was writing a mere letter not addressed to the whole Church in Tuas Libentur.
The Church has condemned this very idea. CONDEMNED proposition #22 of the Syllabus of Errors, addressed to the whole Church, teaches:
“22. The obligation by which Catholic teachers and writers are absolutely bound is restricted to those matters only which are proposed by the infallible judgement of the Church, to be believed by all as dogmas of the faith. “
Pope Leo XIII teaches:
In defining the limits of the obedience owed to the pastors of souls, but most of all to the authority of the Roman Pontiff, it must not be supposed that it is only to be yielded in relation to dogmas of which the obstinate denial cannot be disjoined from the crime of heresy. Nay, further, it is not enough sincerely and firmly to assent to doctrines which, though not defined by any solemn pronouncement of the Church, are by her proposed to belief, as divinely revealed, in her common and universal teaching, and which the [1870] Vatican Council declared are to be believed “with Catholic and divine faith.” But this likewise must be reckoned amongst the duties of Christians, that they allow themselves to be ruled and directed by the authority and leadership of bishops, and, above all, of the Apostolic See.
(See Sapientiae Christianae, para. #24).
CONTINUED BELOW
C. BOD wasn’t universally and constantly held as true.
DeleteAccording to the Maryknoll Catholic Dictionary (1957):
“When the Fathers of the Church are morally unanimous in their teaching that a certain doctrine is a part of revelation, or is received by the universal Church, or that the opposite of a doctrine is heretical, then their united testimony is a certain criterion of divine revelation. As the Fathers are not personally infallible, the counter testimony of one or two would not be destructive of the value of the collective testimony; so A MORAL unanimity only is required. “ MORAL unanimity –not NUMERICAL.
The Feeneyites talk about the necessity of the universal and constant consent of the Fathers as spoken of at the Vatican Council (1869-1870), yet they once more fail to comprehend its meaning. Here is an example from the Vatican Council:
“The universal and constant tradition of the Church, as seen both in facts and in the teaching of the Fathers, as well as in the manner of acting and speaking adopted by many Councils, some of which were Ecumenical, teaches us that the judgments of the Roman Pontiff in matters of faith and morals are irreformable.” (See http://www.catholicplanet.org/councils/20-postulatum.htm).
Protestants jumped all over this by trying to show at least one Father of the Church in disagreement with papal infallibility (therefore "not universal"), or it was not so from antiquity (therefore not constant chronologically). Both the Protestants and Feeneyites get their terms wrong. According to the eminent theologian of the Vatican Council under Pope Pius IX, Cardinal Franzelin, UNIVERSALITY means the consent of the Church AT THIS PRESENT TIME. Only when the present universality (moral unanimity) cannot be confirmed is it necessary to appeal to antiquity, and that appeal is NOT to show it was ALWAYS held, but rather if it was EVER held by the Church as certain. (See On Divine Tradition, reprint of 1875, [2016], pgs. 417-423).
CONTINUED BELOW
4. You write: “The UOM can’t contradict The Extraordinary Magisterium. Also, Geocentrism was taught de fide but later Heliocentrism gained support.”
DeleteReply: The Extraordinary Magisterium and UOM cannot contradict each other. You finally got something right! It’s precisely because of this THEY BOTH AFFIRM BOD.
5. You write, “Also most theologians taught The Arian Heresy during a certain period. Is that the UOM?”
Reply; Most is not all. Second, I would qualify it as many, not necessarily most.
6. You write, “The early Church fathers didn’t teach BoD, and at least four Popes dogmatically declared The Necessity of Water Baptism and being a visible member of The Church to be saved.”
Reply: Yes, baptism by water AND BOD are BOTH dogmatically taught. They do not contradict each other.
As to the Church Fathers:
Baptism of Blood:
St. Cyril of Jerusalem:
“If any man does not receive baptism, he does not have salvation. The only exception is the martyrs, who even without water will receive the kingdom. . . . For the Savior calls martyrdom a baptism, saying, ‘Can you drink the cup which I drink and be baptized with the baptism with which I am to be baptized [Mark 10:38]?’” (Catechetical Lectures 3:10 [A.D. 350]).
Baptism of Desire:
St. Ambrose:
But I hear that you grieve because he did not receive the sacrament of baptism. Tell me: What else is in your power other than the desire, the request? But he even had this desire for a long time, that, when he should come into Italy, he would be initiated, and recently he signified a desire to be baptized by me, and for this reason above all others he thought that I ought to be summoned. Has he not, then, the grace which he desired; has he not the grace which he requested? And because he asked, he received, and therefore is it said: "By whatsoever death the just man shall be overtaken, his soul shall be at rest." (Wisdom 4:7) [De obitu Valentiniani consolation, Funeral Oration of the Emperor Valentinian II, 392 AD]
CONTINUED BELOW
7. You write, “The Church is not invisible where someone can be invisibly united to it because they are “nice” people in false religions. BoD adherents believe a Talmudic Jew, a Jihadist, a Charismatic Protestant twirling around snakes, or a Witch Doctor may actually be a Traditional Catholic even if they reject Christ. This is just beyond wicked. It’s not possible for someone who is externally Non-Catholic to be internally Catholic. This is a sentimental theory of men based on the false arguments of “sincerity” and “being a nice person” and “inculpable ignorance”[sic] could save your soul.”
DeleteReply: This is the “I have no clue what BOD is and I’m proud to show the world” Feeneyite Fallacy.
Pope Pius IX in his encyclical Quanto Conficiamur Moerore [1863], teaches:
“Here, too, our beloved sons and venerable brothers, it is again necessary to mention and censure a very grave error entrapping some Catholics who believe that it is possible to arrive at eternal salvation although living in error and alienated from the true faith and Catholic unity. Such belief is certainly opposed to Catholic teaching. There are, of course, those who are struggling with invincible ignorance about our most holy religion. Sincerely observing the natural law and its precepts inscribed by God on all hearts and ready to obey God, they live honest lives and are able to attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of Divine light and grace. Because God knows, searches and clearly understands the minds, hearts, thoughts, and nature of all, his supreme kindness and clemency do not permit anyone at all who is not guilty of deliberate sin to suffer eternal punishments. Also well known is the Catholic teaching that no one can be saved outside the Catholic Church. “(para. #7 and 8).
Notice that Pope Pius IX affirms the absolute necessity of Church membership for salvation twice, and between these affirmations, he discusses those in invincible ignorance of the true religion who "are able to" (not "will") attain eternal life. Unless you are a Feeneyite, it is apparent that a pope cannot teach error to the whole Church, even when not speaking infallibly. Nor was he schizophrenic, contradicting himself in the same document by affirming the absolute necessity of Church membership and invincible ignorance. Therefore, invincible ignorance is not an exception to Church membership.
First, who are those that Pius IX indicates "may be saved" despite (not because of) invincible ignorance? Certainly not all who are invincibly ignorant as Feeneyites seem to think in their denial of BOD. There are several stringent requirements. The person must:
• be invincibly ignorant of the Catholic religion
• carefully observe the natural law (the duty to "do good and avoid evil" as recognized by human reason)
• observe all the precepts of natural law, which are those specific obligations of the natural law and are known to all people who have not extinguished the light of true conscience within them. Such obligations include, but are not limited to, adoring God, not to steal or kill, to reserve sex for marriage, etc.
• "lead a good and upright life" thus striving to to inform and obey his conscience in regard to every action
• be "ready to obey God" by being disposed to do whatever He may want Him to do, and "lead an honest life" thereby having perfect contrition for sin
If a person meets these requirements, is he/she assured of salvation? In a word: No. They need "Divine light and grace." What does this mean? God can, before death, enlighten the mind by infusing the basic truths of Faith and imbue sanctifying grace in the soul. The person thereby is within the Church with grace and can be saved.
CONTINUED BELOW
Notice how everything I wrote is backed up by meticulous citations to Magisterial and approved theological sources? You cite the Vatican Council of 1870 (which you didn't understand), and yourself.
DeleteI sincerely hope you repent of your errors. If you’d like a refutation of the Galileo affair, I’ll give you one.
I’ll be praying for your conversion and hope that you read what the approved theologians wrote so you can actual knowledge of what the Church really teaches. Being a “sock puppet” for Fred and Bobby Dimond is a sad way to live.
---Introibo
I would ask you not to pray for me since you are not Catholic. I don’t need your prayers since I don’t reject Catholic Dogma and you are sadly a John 3:5 mocker in a state of mortal sin. Also, your prayers would be inefficacious in converting anyone since you are not even Catholic. The same way a Hindu or Animist could not efficaciously pray for someone to have the Truth since they are in diabolical false religions. So I pray you are given the graces to come out of this diabolical fog you are in. Many of the sources you and other false traditionalists site are from modernists who wrote drivel about religious indifferentism under the guise of The Salvation Dogma. The modernists had already infiltrated The Church by the late 19th century and by the mid 19th century they were spreading the poison you are now spreading to the few visitors who come to your site. Your citations are like quoting Freemasons, Protestants, and Talmudic Jews to understand Catholic Teaching. You would probably trust a fox to guard your hen house. In between your weak references and misunderstanding of Catholic Dogma you add your own opinions and fallible notions about what The Church teaches. You are an apologist for Richard Cushing and his cabal. Perhaps you will be The Bnai Brith man of the year, or maybe you can write for The ADL. I can site dozens of references from Popes and the early Church Fathers which I’m sure you have read but obstinately reject or misinterpret to fit your modernist world view. But with true charity. I do pray for your conversion.
ReplyDelete@anon9:23
Delete1. You write, “I would ask you not to pray for me since you are not Catholic.”
Reply: I am indeed a proud Traditionalist Catholic who knows the faith! Not only will I pray for you, I will have the Most Holy sacrifice of the Mass offered for your conversion!
2. You write, “So I pray you are given the graces to come out of this diabolical fog you are in.”
Reply: I have demonstrated that only one of us if so foggy they have no idea of what they pontificate upon; and it’s not me!
3. You write, “Many of the sources you and other false traditionalists site [sic] are from modernists who wrote drivel about religious indifferentism under the guise of The Salvation Dogma. “
Reply: There is not a single Modernist whom I cite. The Council of Trent, the Vatican council of 1870, approved theologians, Popes, etc. You think denying BOD is “Modernist” when it is actually Catholic, as I’ve demonstrated. “Salvation Dogma”—a phrase taken from Fred and Bobby, your cult masters. Yes, you must be in the Church to be saved. No, it does not mean by water baptism only.
4. You write, “Your citations are like quoting Freemasons, Protestants, and Talmudic Jews to understand Catholic Teaching.”
Reply: Sure, Pope Pius IX, St. Ambrose, St. Alphonsus Liguori, etc. are all Freemasonic, Protestant, Talmudic Jews! Makes about as much sense as anything else you’ve written.
5. You write: “The modernists had already infiltrated The Church by the late 19th century and by the mid 19th century they were spreading the poison you are now spreading to the few visitors who come to your site. “
Reply: Actually, God has used my humble blog to a degree I never dreamed of in 2010. I have an average of 30,000 unique readers each month, and coming from every continent except Antarctica! God has used my writings to bring several converts to the One True Faith—they have commented to thank me, and I thank God for using me to accomplish His Will.
Thank you for letting my readers see what a Hitler-worshipping Feeneyite is like. A heart full of hate and a brain empty of reason.
---Introibo
So you believe moral unanimity is Saint Thomas Aquinas, Saint Alphonsus and a few modernist theologians approved by modernist theologians who supported BoD in the 1950s? This is not unanimous in any sense of the word for I can quote quite a few Church Fathers who explicitly teach John 3:5 as it was written explicitly teach the necessity of water baptism. Here’s one, Saint Gregory Nazianzun:
ReplyDeleteSt. Gregory Nazianzen, Oration on Holy Baptism, January 6, 381: “22. But then, you say, is not God merciful, and since He knows our thoughts and searches out our desires, will He not take the desire of Baptism instead of Baptism? You are speaking in riddles, if what you mean is that because of God's mercy the unenlightened is enlightened in His sight; and he is within the Kingdom of Heaven who merely desires to attain to it, but refrains from doing that which pertains to the kingdom.
This great Saint rejected BoD.
When I said UOM can’t contradict the Extraordinary Magisterium it meant that BoD is false. Firstly because it’s not even part of The UOM since the early church fathers didn’t teach BoD. Secondly, to claim it is part of the UOM is impossible because it would contradict the higher authority of The Extraordinary Magisterium. So you made a straw man there.
@anon11:28
DeleteOnce more, I thank you for coming here to comment! You're proving in a written forum how wrong and intellectually bankrupt the Feeneyites are better than I could imagine. This is a great service to my readers.
1. You write, “So you believe moral unanimity is Saint Thomas Aquinas, Saint Alphonsus and a few modernist theologians approved by modernist theologians who supported BoD in the 1950s?”
Reply: No. There has been moral unanimity since The Council of Trent. Cite just ONE approved theologian or canonist who disagreed and wrote against BOD/BOB. You won’t find any!
2. You write, “This is not unanimous in any sense of the word for I can quote quite a few Church Fathers who explicitly teach John 3:5 as it was written explicitly teach the necessity of water baptism. Here’s one, Saint Gregory Nazianzun: etc.”
Reply: The Church Fathers were not since the time of Trent. Second, the very saint you cite AFFIRMS BAPTISM OF BLOOD:
“Now there is also a fourth kind of baptism [besides the baptism of Moses, of John, and of Jesus], namely that which is acquired by martyrdom and blood, by 8 SOURCES OF BAPTISM OF BLOOD AND DESIRE which Christ Himself was also baptized, and which indeed is more venerable than the others, because it is contaminated by no defilements afterwards.” (Source: Journel, M. J. Rouet De, S.J. Enchiridion Patristicum. Editio Quart et Quinta).
He believed there was a way to be saved without water baptism—namely, Baptism of Blood. Do you believe in BOB? Why not? Notice how your cult masters, Fred and Bobby Dimond, will quote a saint when it suits there nefarious purpose but will omit another when it doesn’t. Can you say “disingenuous”? I knew you could!
3. You write, “When I said UOM can’t contradict the Extraordinary Magisterium it meant that BoD is false. Firstly because it’s not even part of The UOM since the early church fathers didn’t teach BoD.”
Reply: I know what you meant and you’re..get ready…WRONG!! The early Church Fathers don’t need numerical unanimity as I already explained.
CONTINUED BELOW
4. You write, “Secondly, to claim it is part of the UOM is impossible because it would contradict the higher authority of The Extraordinary Magisterium. So you made a straw man there.”
DeleteReply: More sheer ignorance! No strawman here. The Extraordinary Magisterium is not a higher authority than the UOM. They are equally infallible.
What is the Magisterium? According to theologian Parente, it is "the power conferred by Christ upon His Church and strengthened with the charism of infallibility, by which the teaching Church (Ecclesia docens) is constituted as the unique depository and authentic interpreter of divine revelation to be proposed authoritatively to men as the object of faith for their eternal salvation." (See Dictionary of Dogmatic Theology, [1951], pg. 170). Therefore, the Church is divinely appointed to teach all necessary truths of faith to people, free from error, in order that they may attain Heaven. "Magisterium" comes from the Latin magister or "teacher." Christ told His Apostles "Go therefore, teach ye all nations..."(St. Matthew 28:19).
The Magisterium, therefore, is expressed either solemnly or in an ordinary and universal way. This is clear from both Church history and the dogmatic decree of the Vatican Council of 1870. The former exercise of the Church's teaching authority is called the Solemn or Extraordinary Magisterium and the latter is called the Universal and Ordinary Magisterium ("UOM"). Both are equally infallible. As the Vatican Council of 1870 dogmatically taught:
“Further, all those things are to be believed with divine and catholic faith which are contained in the Word of God, written or handed down, and which the Church, either by a solemn judgment, or by her ordinary and universal Magisterium, proposes for belief as having been Divinely-revealed.”( Dei Filius)
Please read the approved theologians and learn the Faith.
---Introibo
Continued: Pope Pius IX
ReplyDeleteDivine light and grace means receiving The Gospel, not being put into a state of grace without The Catholic Faith.
The Catholic Faith is Necessary for Salvation:
Pope Paul III, Council of Trent, Sess. 5, On Original Sin: “… our Catholic faith, without which it is impossible to please God…”
Pope Pius IX, Vatican Council I, Session 2, Profession of Faith, 1870: “This true Catholic faith, outside of which none can be saved, which I now freely profess and truly hold…”
@anon11:32
DeleteYou write, “Divine light and grace means receiving The Gospel, not being put into a state of grace without The Catholic Faith.”
Reply: I never claimed it did, please learn to read. What I wrote above: “If a person meets these requirements, is he/she assured of salvation? In a word: No. They need "Divine light and grace." What does this mean? God can, before death, enlighten the mind by infusing the basic truths of Faith and imbue sanctifying grace in the soul. The person thereby is within the Church with grace and can be saved.” Got that? “Infusing the basic truths of Faith.” You have therefore “received the Gospel truth.”
---Introibo
Catechism vs. Council Documents
ReplyDeleteThe Catechism of Trent was a compilation of information intended for parish priests. It is not infallible in every word written in this Catechism. Also the original of 1566 did not mention BoD as I understand. So every sentence isn’t infallible, but there were teachings and doctrine that were to be taught to the faithful. The parts to be taught are the infallible ones that were always taught by the Church, not BoD. Which was NEVER taught by this or any Council.
Also, there were Popes who approved and even recommended the Summa Theologiae of St. Thomas to be taught in schools. Even though it teaches errors on The Immaculate Conception it was approved to be taught.
@anon11:42
Delete1. You write, “Catechism vs. Council Documents
The Catechism of Trent was a compilation of information intended for parish priests.”
Reply: Why would priests need a Catechism for (allegedly) self-explanatory Council documents?
2. You write, “So every sentence isn’t infallible, but there were teachings and doctrine that were to be taught to the faithful. The parts to be taught are the infallible ones that were always taught by the Church, not BoD. Which was NEVER taught by this or any Council.”
Reply: So a Catechism was solemnly approved by Pope St. Pius V that contained heresy? How could he teach heresy to the Church and still be pope? YOU get to decide what is true and false in a catechism intended to instruct the clergy and faithful?
Yes, BOD was taught infallibly at Trent by the extraordinary Magisterium:
The Extraordinary Magisterium pronounces BOD dogma as does the Universal and Ordinary Magisterium.
CONTINUED BELOW
From the Council of Trent:
DeleteCANON IV.-If any one saith, that the sacraments of the New Law are not necessary unto salvation, but superfluous; and that, without them, OR WITHOUT THE DESIRE THEREOF, men obtain of God, through faith alone, the grace of justification;-though all (the sacraments) are not indeed necessary for every individual; let him be anathema. (Emphasis mine).
From the Decree on Justification:
By which words, a description of the Justification of the impious is indicated,-as being a translation, from that state wherein man is born a child of the first Adam, to the state of grace, and of the adoption of the sons of God, through the second Adam, Jesus Christ, our Savior. And this translation, since the promulgation of the Gospel, cannot be effected, without the laver of regeneration, OR THE DESIRE THEREOF, as it is written; unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God. (Emphasis mine).
How do we know what these passages mean? The unanimous consent of all approved theologians and the Catechism of the Council of Trent tell us so.
Feeneyites will state that "without the laver of regeneration, or the desire thereof,..." means that a person must intend to receive baptism because the sacrament would be invalid if forced upon someone who didn't want it. When it's pointed out that the conjunction "or" is used meaning you must receive the laver of regeneration OR have the desire for it, the Feeneyite will retort that "or" really means "and." When you say a car can't run without gas OR oil, you really need both. Forget the Fathers, Doctors, and approved theologians--Fred and Bobby know best!
CONTINUED BELOW
Even the very documents of Trent prove the Feeneyites wrong. In Trent's Decree on Penance and Extreme Unction, we read:
Delete"The Synod [Trent] teaches moreover, that, although it sometimes happen that this contrition is perfect through charity, and reconciles man with God before this sacrament [Penance] be actually received, the said reconciliation, nevertheless, is not to be ascribed to that contrition, independently of the desire of the sacrament which is included therein. "
We have a teaching on "Penance by desire." Later, the Decree states,
"This Sacrament of Penance is, for those who have fallen after baptism, necessary unto salvation; as baptism itself is for those who have not as yet been regenerated"
The Council of Trent says here that the sacrament of penance is necessary for the salvation of those who have fallen after baptism, as baptism itself is for those who have not as yet been regenerated. However, it is very clear that Trent admits that a man can receive the effect of the sacrament of Penance by desire, before actually receiving the sacrament itself.
Thus, if one wishes to hold that baptism by water is necessary in such a way that the effect of baptism cannot be received before the sacrament itself, one must also hold that the same thing is true of Penance. Otherwise, it would not be true that the sacrament of penance is necessary after sinning just as the sacrament of baptism before being baptized.
Hence, “DESIRE” does NOT mean “INTENDS TO RECEIVE.”
CONTINUED BELOW
3. You write, “Also, there were Popes who approved and even recommended the Summa Theologiae of St. Thomas to be taught in schools. Even though it teaches errors on The Immaculate Conception it was approved to be taught.”
DeleteReply: As to Aquinas, the matter of the Immaculate Conception was not settled but open to debate among the theologians. His main problem was how to reconcile Mary's Immaculate Conception with the fact she (like all humans) needed to be redeemed. Pope Pius IX addressed this concern in his Apostolic Constitution Ineffabilis Deus when he defined that Mary was preserved free from Original Sin "in view of the merits of Jesus Christ." Hence, she was redeemed by Christ in a unique manner.
The popes allowed his Summa to be read after 1854, to show how the Angelic Doctor thought. It was historical. Seminary professors knew that was not to be taught as true, and most editions had a footnote that this teaching of Aquinas was rejected by the Church. Your objection has no merit.
---Introibo
Thank you for the great article! One small quibble, where you wrote, "1. His Holiness was wrong to allow the study of a subject that was settled, much like Roncalli (John XXIII) was wrong to allow study on the morality of artificial contraception; The Church Fathers were unanimous against the idea of evolution of the body."
ReplyDeleteJohn XXIII did not establish the commission to "allow study on the morality of contraception," rather he established it to examine the policies of the U.N, and recommend to the Holy See responses to these policies. At no point was there any evidence that the commission established by him was discussing the morality of the use of contraception. That came later under Paul VI.
@anon4:50
DeleteYou are correct! Thank you for that correction; I learn a lot from my readers. I have made that change in the post.
Thank you, my friend!
God Bless (and mea culpa!),
---Introibo
Introibo,
ReplyDeleteThank you for the post and for your apologetics. It helped me learn more about invincible ignorance, the role of theologians, and the Magisterium.
Could you clarify moral vs numerical unanimity? I thought I understood it, but based on the following excerpts, I’m not sure anymore.
“Only when the present universality (moral unanimity) cannot be confirmed…”
“As the Fathers are not personally infallible, the counter testimony of one or two would not be destructive of the value of the collective testimony; so A MORAL unanimity only is required.”
I look forward to reading your article on Latin. Thank you for the link. I only skimmed it thus far to find the answer to one particular question – Is private prayer in Latin especially efficacious? Perhaps by virture of the effort in learning, or by being connected to the earliest Masses in the Church? I believe our intention, focus, and desire all trump other details. Do you (or anyone) know about this – the benefits of praying privately in Latin?
It would be a sad day if I rejected prayers from anyone, as I need all the prayers that I can get!
God Bless,
-Seeking Truth
Seeking Truth,
Delete1. "Moral Unanimity" refers to the morally unanimous teaching of the Church Fathers on certain doctrines as revealed by God and interpretations of Scripture as received by the universal Church. The individual Fathers are not personally infallible, and a discrepancy by a few patristic witnesses does not harm the collective patristic testimony.
Where the Fathers speak in harmony, with one mind overall—not necessarily each and every one agreeing on every detail but by consensus and general agreement—we have "morally unanimous consent."
Indeed, the Fathers all agreed that Baptism by water is absolutely necessary in the ordinary course of events but there are rare means in extraordinary circumstances. Note that St. Gregory, whom my Feeneyite foe cites in opposition to BOD (actually taken verbatim from Fred and Bobby Dimond), wrote in defense of Baptism of Blood (BOB). Of course, the Dimonds conveniently leave that citation out.
If all THEOLOGIANS are unanimous in declaring a doctrine as Church teaching, such must be held by the faithful. ALL THEOLOGIANS after Trent (ended in 1563) teach that BOD and BOB are part of the Deposit of Revelation and must be believed. At Trent, it was INFALLIBLY defined that baptism OR THE DESIRE THEREOF is necessary for salvation. So both the extraordinary and Universal Ordinary Magisterium teach BOD and BOB.
Lastly, the 1917 Code of Canon Law, a universal disciplinary law, teaches Baptism of Desire. Universal disciplinary laws are infallibly protected against giving evil or teaching error.
So the Magisterium makes it clear AT TRENT, IN CANON LAW, and by the UOM, that BOD and BOB MUST be believed by all the Catholic faithful.
2. To the best of my knowledge and belief, there is no Magisterial teaching on the benefits of praying in Latin. My spiritual father, Fr. DePauw (an approved pre-V2 canonist) urged everyone to learn ecclesiastical Latin (as opposed to Classical pronunciation) to focus the mind when at Mass. I was lucky that the undergrad college I attended offered Latin, which I took for two years.
I believe it will (a) help you follow the Mass more attentively, (b) pray more attentively, (c) focus on the meaning of the prayers themselves. All of this is certainly positive and will no doubt yield graces from God and the Blessed Mother!
God Bless,
---Introibo
Hi Introibo, following up on Gen Z, may of whom embrace extremism, here is a video called "Sedevacantism Refuted" - (Full Documentary 2023) on the YouTube channel, Gen Z Catholic. Thought you and your readers might find it interesting in light of this comment thread. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nIdJ2VVimUQ
ReplyDeleteThank you for the link. I saw this video, and the title is much more optimistic than the content justifies. I may refute the refutation later this year. It seems the person who made it was sede and then changed his mind, putting out this piece of drivel disguised as research and argumentation. Many Gen Zers seem lost.
DeleteGod Bless,
---Introibo
I just wasted about 90 minutes on this nonsensical video. My Lord! It's just plain awful.
DeleteHi Introibo and fellow readers. I was the one who posted about the GenZ "documentary" called "Sedevacantism Refuted." I came across a GenZ team response to that video earlier today entitled "Sedevantism Refuted - Response." Here is the link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NlDyt7zeDe8&t=2s Would appreciate hearing everyone's thoughts on the response video. It was good to see young people taking this on, though they do refer to vaticancatholic and the Dimond brothers two or three times. I won't hold it against them!
ReplyDeleteCyrus,
DeleteIt's an effort, but one that is undone by reference to Feeneyites. Sad that there can't be a refutation by Gen Z without heresy. Most of their religious formations are sorely lacking. Thanks for sharing!
God Bless,
---Introibo
What is the exact definition of traditional Baptism of Desire?
ReplyDeleteGod bless,
Andrew