Then Bugnolo took it upon himself to hold a "conclave" in an airport with about five "electors." Whom did they "elect"? Jorge Bergoglio who then became pope on January 30, 2022. (I couldn't make it up if I tried). Now, he holds Prevost's election as invalid so he's back to his brand of sedevacantism.
Bugnolo's website fromrome.info carried an article last month entitled "The Heresy of Classical Sedevacantism." He deems the position of those of us who reject Vatican II and all "popes" from Roncalli (or at least Montini) to Prevost as "classical." I label his form of sedevacantism as "Asinine Sedevacantism" (AS). I was wondering what a muddleheaded pseudo-brother thought was "heretical" about classic sedevacantism. As I suspected, the answer was as ridiculous as his "conclave."
Bugnolo writes:
But one of the core theological positions often found with classical Sedevacantism is that the ritual for the consecration of Bishops in the New Rite after Vatican II cannot validly effect the consecration of a Bishop...
He continues:
Their chief motivation for adopting this denial is to justify their conspiracy theories about invalid conclaves and invalid popes. They say, for example, that Pope Benedict XVI could not validly be a pope because he was never validly consecrated as a Bishop, even though his principle consecrator, Msgr. Josef Stangel, was consecrated a Bishop in 1957, in the “Old Rite”.
The rest of the article is an attempt to show the Pauline Rite of episcopal consecration to be valid. Personally, I don't know any sede who adopts sedevacantism on account of an invalid episcopal consecration. Ratzinger was not Catholic and heretics cannot attain to the papacy. Secondly, true sedevacantists are in no need of conspiracy theories (although many abound) to declare the See of Rome vacant. It's based on sound theological principles.
(See my post: introiboadaltaredei2.blogspot.com/2025/08/conspiracies-traditionalists-and.html).
So I don't know who "they" are who allegedly think invalid episcopal consecrations validate sedevacantism. Nevertheless, I thought this was a good opportunity to write about the invalidity of the Pauline Rite of episcopal consecration. To be certain, Fr. Anthony Cekada (RIP) wrote a study entitled Absolutely Null and Utterly Void, which remains the gold standard in refuting the validity of Vatican II orders. The remainder of this post will be a recapitulation of the reasons the Pauline Rite is as useless to create a bishop as the Anglican Ordinal. I give full credit to the work of Fr. Cekada, and the myriad sources both in print and online for the material that follows next. I take absolutely no credit for myself, except for condensing the material into a terse and readable form.
The Requirements for Sacramental Validity in Episcopal Consecrations
Episcopal consecrations are essential for the Church to continue. All the sacraments but two (Baptism and Matrimony) require a priest or bishop. Only bishops can ordain men priests and consecrate priests as bishops. If episcopal consecrations are invalid, eventually the Most Holy Sacrifice of the Mass will be no more, as would be the case with Holy Orders, Confirmation, Extreme Unction, the Eucharist, and Penance.
As with all sacraments, there are five requirements for validity, and a substantial change in any one of these will make the sacrament invalid: Administer, Matter, Form, Intention, and there must be no obex (invalidating obstacle) on the part of the recipient. Each will be examined in relation to episcopal consecration.
Administer: Only a validly consecrated bishop can consecrate a priest as a bishop. Three bishops (a principal consecrator, and two co-consecrators) are employed, but only a single bishop as principal consecrator suffices for validity.
Matter: The imposition of the hands of the bishop on the head of the priest being consecrated.
Form: These are the words that must accompany the matter to effectuate the sacramental sign. Christ specified certain sacraments in a precise manner - in specie.. Such is the case with both Baptism and the Eucharist where He gave the words to be used. With regard to the other sacraments, it is held that He only specified the form in genere - in a general way, leaving to the Apostles and their successors in the One True Church the care and power of determining them more precisely. Pope Pius XII established the words to be used in the Apostolic Constitution Sacramentum Ordinis in 1947.
Intention: The bishop must have the proper intention. That is, he must intend to do what the Church does in the administration of the sacrament. Intention is usually seen as having both an external and internal aspect. The external intention is provided to the bishop by the rite he uses and it is assumed that he intends what the rite intends. His internal intention is another matter and can never be known with certainty unless he exposes it or makes it known. The Church, recognizing that She can never know the internal intention of the bishop, presumes it is the same as his external intention, (the intention which the traditional rite provides by its very wording) unless he himself informs the Church otherwise.
No Obex: Only a validly ordained priest who intends to receive consecration to the episcopacy can become a bishop. Females can never validly receive Holy Orders. The attempted consecration of a deacon or a layman is dubious and must be treated as invalid in the practical order.
(See theologian Pohle, Dogmatic Theology, 8:Part 1, pgs. 1-200 [1915]).
Comparing the Form of the Traditional Rite and Pauline Rite
In Sacramentum Ordinis, para. #5, Pope Pius XII settled the matter and form for the episcopacy, priesthood, and diaconate definitively. He decreed:
Finally in the Episcopal Consecration, the matter is the imposition of hands which is done by the Bishop consecrator. The form consists of the words of the “Preface,” of which the following are essential and therefore required for validity:
“Comple in Sacerdote tuo ministerii tui summam, et ornamentis totius glorificationis instructum coelestis unguenti rore santifica.”
[“Perfect in Thy priest the fullness of thy ministry and, clothing him in all the ornaments of spiritual glorification, sanctify him with the Heavenly anointing.”]
Montini (Paul VI) issuing his Apostolic Constitution entitled Pontificalis Romani (June 23, 1968) in which he retains the matter - the laying on of hands - but in which he specifies that the form for ordaining bishops is to be:
"et nunc effunde super hunc electum eam virtutem, quae a te est, spiritum principalem, quem dedisti dilecto filio tuo Jesu Christo, quem ipse donavit sanctis apostolis, qui constituerunt ecclesiam per singula loca, ut sanctuarium tuum, in gloriam et laudem indificientem nominis tui" - ["So now pour forth upon this chosen one that power which is from You, the governing Spirit whom You gave to your beloved Son, Jesus Christ, the Spirit given by him to the holy apostles, who found the Church in every place to be your temple for the unceasing glory and praise of your name."]
Why change the form of the sacrament when it was already settled? Montini was out to destroy the hierarchy. There are here two forms, or more precisely two groups of "essential" words wherein the substance of the form is to be found, and both of which are stated to be required for validity. How can one explain this apparent disparity? The Church has the right to change the wording of the form for Holy Orders, but only in so far as She doesn't change their "substance" or meaning. The problem to be resolved then, is whether both forms mean the same thing. They do not.
Pope Leo XIII and the Theologians on the Form of Holy Orders
In 1896, Pope Leo XIII declared Anglican Orders "absolutely null and utterly void." His Holiness based this decision on a defect of both form and intention--either one would render it invalid. Here, I will only deal with the form. Paragraph #28 states:
The same holds good of episcopal consecration. For to the formula, “Receive the Holy Ghost, " not only were the words “for the office and work of a bishop”, etc. added at a later period, but even these, as we shall presently state, must be understood in a sense different to that which they bear in the Catholic rite. Nor is anything gained by quoting the prayer of the preface, “Almighty God”, since it, in like manner, has been stripped of the words which denote the summum sacerdotium .
It was taught by the pope, and explained by the theologians, that each grade of Holy Orders (deacon, priest, bishop) must (a) univocally state the order being given (deacon, priest, bishop) and (b) the grace of the Holy Ghost. If either is absent, the sacrament is not effectuated. As theologian Semple teaches:
It is not essential to express the word, "deacon," "priest," or "bishop," but the form must at least express some clear equivalent. Thus "the order of the Blessed Stephen" is a clear equivalent of the order of Deacon. It is not essential to express the main power of the priest or the bishop in the form, but if this main power were expressed, it too would be an equivalent. However, it is essential to express either the order or its main power, and if the main power is not only left out, but positively excluded, then the right name, though kept, is not the right name in reality but only a shadow. Now, the main power of a true priest is to offer a true sacrifice, and at least one of the main powers of a bishop is to make priests.
(See Anglican Ordinations, [1906], pg. 153).
The theologian who drafted the Apostolic Constitution Sacramentum Ordinis, Hurth, considers the definition of Pope Pius to be infallible, and has this to say: The words which fully suffice for the power and the grace to be signified are found in the consecratory Preface, whose essential words are those in which the ‘fullness or totality’ of the sacerdotal ministry and the ‘raiment of all glory’ are expressed.
(See Commentary on the Apostolic Constitution Sacramentum Ordinis,” Periodica 37, pg. 26; English translation).
The Pauline Rite Does NOT Signify What is Necessary
The new form of Montini does not contain a univocal expression of the episcopacy and the grace of the Holy Ghost; the absence of either is a substantial change and invalidating defect. Once more:
So now pour forth upon this chosen one that power which is from You, the governing Spirit whom You gave to your beloved Son, Jesus Christ, the Spirit given by him to the holy apostles, who found the Church in every place to be your temple for the unceasing glory and praise of your name.
The phrase "spiritum principalem" ("governing Spirit") is not to be found in any known ordination rite, as can be seen by referring to either Vindication of the Bull 'Apostolic Curae, by the Catholic bishops of England, or Bishop Kendrick's book on The Validity of Anglican Ordinations, both of which list all the known episcopal rites. The phrase is found in only one place in Scripture - Psalm 50, verse 14 - "redde mihi laeitiam salutaris tui et spiritu principali confirma me - restore unto me the joy of thy salvation and strengthen me with a governing (or upright) spirit.." The context is that of David asking God's forgiveness for his adulterous relationship with Bathsheba and the strength to control his passions, and thus can be applied to any individual.
If "governing Spirit" refers to the grace of the Holy Ghost, where is the rank of bishop univocally expressed? If it refers to the order of bishop (never used before) where is the grace of the Holy Ghost expressed?
Many apologist for the Vatican II sect have tried to analogize to the so-called "Apostolic Tradition of Hippolytus." Hippolytus was a highly enigmatic person who lived in the third century. He was born about 160 and is thought to have been a disciple of St. Iranaeus. He became a priest under Pope Zephyrinus about the year 198 and won great respect for his learning and eloquence. After having doctrinal differences with the Pope, Hippolytus left Rome, found a bishop to consecrate him, and established a schismatic Church. He was subsequently excommunicated. He drew up his "Apostolic Traditions" while he was outside the Church, presumably to establish a "pontifical" for his schismatic sect. Later, after Maximus became emperor and instituted a new persecution against the Christians, both he and the reigning Pontiff (Pontianus) were arrested and sent to the mines in Sardinia. It was here, just prior to his death, that he became reconciled to the Church. Both he and the pope were martyred together and later canonized. The Hippolytic schism ended with this event.
The text written by Hippolytus as a "Pontifical" for his schismatic sect was named by him "The Apostolic Traditions." According to Professor Burton Scott Easton of Cambridge University, we can summarize what we know of this document in the following words:
The original Greek of the Apostolic tradition has not been recovered, except in small fragments. the Latin is generally trustworthy, but is incomplete. The only other primary version, the Sahidic, is likewise incomplete, and the results of the moderate abilities of its translator have been further confused in later transmission. The Arabic is a secondary text, offering little that the Sahidic does not contain. The only practically complete version, the Ethiopic, is tertiary and is otherwise unreliable. All four of these versions presuppose a common Greek original, in which two different endings have been conflated. The other sources, the Constitutions, the Testament and the Canons are frank revisions, in which the original is often edited out of recognition or even flatly contradicted. Under these conditions the restoration of a really accurate text is manifestly impossible.
(See The Apostolic Tradition of Hippolytus, translated into English with an introduction and notes, [1934]; Emphasis mine).
Without being sure the words are correct, Montini used them. Clearly we have no exact knowledge of the form that Hippolytus used, and just as clearly, there is no evidence that the form adopted by Paul VI was ever used to consecrate anybody.
The Nail in the Coffin for the Pauline Rite: Matter and Form are NOT United
Matter and form must be united to produce the sacramental sign. To give an example, a priest cannot pour water over the head of an infant while having a coughing fit, and then say "I baptize thee..." a minute after the water has been poured; the baptism is invalid.
In the traditional rite, prior to the imposition of hands - the matter of the rite - the Consecrator took the open book of the Gospels, and saying nothing, laid it upon the neck and the shoulders of the Bishop-elect, so that the printed page touched the neck. One of the chaplains kneeled behind supporting the book until it was given into the hands of the Bishop-elect. After this the consecrator imposed his hands on the head of the ordinand, saying "Receive the Holy Ghost," and then proceeded with a short prayer and the preface which contained the words of the form. There was a moral continuity of action so that the form was not really separated from the matter.
In the new rite the principal consecrator lays his hands upon the bishop-elect in silence. Following this the principal consecrator places the open Book of the Gospels upon the head of the bishop-elect; two deacons, standing at either side of the bishop-elect, hold the Book of the Gospels above his head until the prayer of consecration is completed. Here the continuity of action is discontinuous which is to say that the matter and the form are separated by the imposition of the Gospels over the head of the bishop-elect.
Matter and Form must be united or concurrent. As theologian Davis teaches:
The matter and form must be united - so far as union is possible - to produce the one external rite, and so to produce a valid Sacrament... However in Holy Orders, ...moral simultaneity is sufficient, that is, these Sacraments are valid though the proximate matter is employed immediately before or after the use of the word. What interval would suffice to render the Sacrament invalid cannot be determined; the interval of the recital of the 'Our Father' appeared sufficient to St. Alphonsus, but in such matters we should not rely on probabilities, we should make sure the matter and form are as united as we can make them. (See Moral and Pastoral Theology, 3:10-11, [1935]).
Conclusion
The validity of episcopal consecration has nothing to do with sedevacantism, yet it has been shown invalid due to substantial defect of the essential form and the disunity of the matter and form. As of this writing, there remain only nine valid bishops in the Latin Rite of the Vatican II sect. The Modernists have succeeded in destroying the hierarchy in their sect.
I guess it only makes sense that when you adopt Asinine Sedevacantism, like Alexis Bugnolo, all the rest of theology becomes equally mindless.
Dear Introibo, please pray for me, as today is my first confirmation anniversary. Just today, I foumd this fundamentalist preacher attacking the Shroud of Turin as "Antichrist": https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TEYJkbQ1RW8&pp=0gcJCRsBo7VqN5tD Can you please refute this? PS I also discovered a radical Fundie Muslim site, similar to the Dimond Brothers and various fundie Prots in America. The site is anti-Shia.
ReplyDeleteRyan, congratulations on celebrating your one-year confirmation anniversary! I'm still working on my own confirmation and hope to have it happen sometime nexy year. As to this "preacher" attacking the Shroud of Turin as the face of Antichrist, I can't take him seriously. I can't find any evidence of what his theological training is, including his academic credentials or his denominational affiliation. He seems to be associated in some capacity with the Seventh Day Adventist Church founded by William Miller, who taught that Jesus would return around 1843-1844. Why should I trust anything this so-called pastor says when the founder of the church he is somehow affiliated with was wrong about the Second Coming? Some of what he says sounds on point, like saying that Jesus is the Truth. Yes, that's correct, but much of whatever else he says in this video is wrong. He talks about the Bible being the Word of God, but he's using and quoting from an incomplete Bible. He also neglects to say anything about the Church that Jesus Christ established nearly two thousand years ago. Now, why is that? I haven't looked at any of the other videos on his YouTube channel, but frankly, I wouldn't waste much time and effort on anything he or his ministry has to say about anything. I would suggest focusing on what the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church has to say about the endtimes, the Antichrist, the faith, and salvation, and not on any evangelical, protestant "pastor" who's educational and theological training is highly doubtful and suspicious. My apologies if any of what I write here comes across as unsympathetic and uncharitable, it's not my intent. Focus on what the Catholic Church teaches and you'll be good to go! Take care, Ryan, and again, congratulations on your anniversary. I'll also review the anti-sharia website later this week or next week to see what it has to say about anything relevant. If it's anything like what the Dimond Brothers have to say, steer far and wide!
DeleteOne additional comment. Why should anyone put any trust in the teachings of false prophets and false churches about Christ, His Word, and His Church, especially when they don't conform to what the Catholic Church teaches. Perhaps our gracious host would be interested in writing about the Shroud of Turin in the future?
DeleteThe Shroud of Turin and the Face of God: https://youtu.be/OElbxDPsqpw?si=rQ33L88o7maoqngk
DeleteDear Cyrus, here is the Muslim website that is just similar to the Dimond bros: https://ebnhussein.com/
DeleteRyan, Introibo, and readers of this blog. Please accept my sincere apologies for the harsh tone with which I wrote my postings in response to Ryan's inquiry about the Shroud of Turin/ O wrote in haste, without charity, humility, patience, or kindess, but predominantly out of a desire to be proven right, with self-righteous anger, pride, and arrogance. All this while I was beginning my evening prayers, specifically praying the Chaplet of the Seven Sorrows of the Blessed Virgin Mary and the Five Joyful Mysteries of the Holy Rosary. I ask everyone, wtihout the right to, for your forgiveness and prayers. I'm really struggling.
DeleteRyan,
DeleteI pray for you and all my readers every day! Congratulations on your Confirmation anniversary. As to the Shroud, Cyrus put the link to my post below:
https://introiboadaltaredei2.blogspot.com/2022/04/shrouded-in-mystery.html?m=1
God Bless,
---Introibo
Cyrus,
DeleteNo need for apologies. I found nothing wrong in any of your replies/comments. You did a good job responding!
God Bless,
---Introibo
The V2 sect is a pale imitation of the Anglican sect, with an invalid “pope,” “cardinals,” “bishops,” and “priests,” and a few remnants of Catholicism to deceive Novus Ordo members who sincerely claim to be Catholic, the “recognize and resist” crowd like Bugnolo, and the rest of the world who believe that the Church has simply “changed.” The devil has almost succeeded in deceiving everyone, but he has not deceived the small remnant of true Catholic faithful.
ReplyDeleteI believed in the deception of the Novus Ordo at first, even though some things seemed incompatible with the Bible and the traditional teaching of the Church, but I only truly understood that I was a victim of spiritual fraud towards the end of 2019.
DeleteI in same time frame Simon but got trapped in RR for 5 years. Just discovered another compromised sede priest. Sad so much sede nonsense. Makes me doubt.
DeleteWhat do you mean by compromised?
DeleteSimon,
DeleteGlad you and @anon4:46 got out of the V2 sect by the grace of God!
God Bless,
---Introibo
Yes by His Grace we escaped.
DeleteTo person who asked about compromise...this article and the example of Saints steer us. Be aware the article is good but they R&R, so they compromised too. They have some truths on their site which helped me much.
St. Basil the Great, Doctor of the Church, that recounts true Catholics avoided the church buildings during Arian times although they contained validly consecrated Hosts, because those buildings were places of evil. Here are St. Basil’s words:
Religious people keep silence, but every blaspheming tongue is let loose. Sacred things are profaned; those of the laity who are sound in faith avoid the places of worship as schools of impiety, and raise their hands in solitudes, with groans and tears to the Lord in heaven.
Quoted from The Arians of the Fourth Century, by John Henry Cardinal Newman, Third Edition, E. Lumley, London, 1871 (Epistle 92) pp. 467-8 (emphasis added).
Thanks be to God for the teaching of the great St. Basil, to stay away from the heterodox places and priests even when they have the validly consecrated Hosts! (Of course, in the conciliar churches, the hosts are often, or always, NOT valid.)
Saints, such as St. Hermenegild, proved with their blood the great evil of associating with heterodox priests on the excuse that they have valid Hosts. Pope Saint Gregory the Great, Doctor of the Church, who was a contemporary of St. Hermenegild, recounts his glorious life and his courageous martyrdom because he refused the valid Communion from a bad but valid priest.
Here is St. Gregory’s account:
King Hermenegild, son of Leovigild king of the Visigoths, was converted, from the Arian heresy, to the Catholic faith, by the preaching of the venerable Leander, Bishop of Seville, one of my oldest and dearest friends. ... It was the Feast of Easter. At an early hour of the night, when all was still, his wicked father sent an Arian Bishop to him, with this message, that if he would receive Communion from his hands, (the Communion of a sacrilegious consecration!) he should be restored to favor. True to his Creator, the man of God gave a merited reproof to the Arian Bishop, and, with holy indignation, rejected his sinful offer; for though his body lay prostrate in chains, his soul stood on ground beyond the reach of tyranny. The Bishop therefore, returned whence he had come. The Arian father raged, and straightway sent his lictors [i.e., officers], bidding them repair to the prison of the unflinching Confessor of the Lord, and murder him on the spot. They obeyed; they entered the prison; they cleft his skull with a sword; they took away the life of the body, and slew what he, the slain one, had sworn to count as vile. Miracles soon followed, whereby heaven testified to the true glory of Hermenegild; for during, the night, there was heard sweet music nigh to the body of the King and Martyr, — King indeed, because he was a Martyr.
The above quote is taken from the Dialogues of St. Gregory the Great, quoted in The Liturgical Year, Dom Prosper Gueranger, Paschal Time, Vol. II, April 13 (parenthetical words in the original; bracketed word added; emphasis added).
Thanks be to God, that St. Hermenegild preferred to die rather than have any connection with a validly-consecrated Host in the hands of a heterodox priest!
Here is article I forgot to post. To the person who asked about how a priest is compromised...Fr Sam Waters used to serve my chapel. He told me he was conditionally ordained by Bp Williamson because he wanted to please people who would not trust him! That is a sacrilege! He didn't think his NO ordination was doubtful. He only did it for those who believe it is. Insane! So many are...compromised!
Deletehttps://catholiccandle.org/2020/04/02/a-compromise-groups-masses-and-sacraments-do-not-give-grace-because-the-end-does-not-justify-the-means/
Thank you for your reply. I know of a very similar case. Conditionally ordained, with nothing but Novus Ordo seminary "training" and "self-trained", who gives the details of his Novus Ordo "ordination" and his conditional ordination as if both were equally valid or whatever. It is maddening indeed. None of the sedevacantist priests who saw the light and realized they had never been actual priests in the Novus Ordo ever acted like that. Fr. Michael Oswalt is a great example of a man humble enough to realize his NO ordination inavlid and subject himself to real seminary training. May God reward him for that!
DeleteGod Bless!
Our host has already published an article on the Shroud of Turin. I should check before I post! https://introiboadaltaredei2.blogspot.com/2022/04/shrouded-in-mystery.html?m=1
ReplyDeletehttps://youtu.be/O7XvEqOoMEI?si=6p0v6Tx90dLcI1AY
ReplyDeleteSermon today re Work of Human Hands in honor of 15 year anniversary.
And a relevant quote I keep close is:
"We must remember that if all the manifestly good men were on one side and all the manifestly bad men on the other, there would be no danger of anyone, least of all the elect, being deceived by lying wonders. It is the good men, good once, we must hope good still, who are to do the work of Anti-Christ and so sadly to crucify the Lord afresh…. Bear in mind this feature of the last days, that this deceitfulness arises from good men being on the wrong side."
--Fr. Frederick Faber, Sermon for Pentecost Sunday, 1861
@anon6:16
DeleteExcellent! Thank you for commenting!
God Bless,
---Introibo
Then in what sense are they “good”?
DeleteThe book "Lex Orandi" by Daniel Graham does a comparison of the traditional and NO rites of the seven sacraments.
ReplyDelete@anon7:01
DeleteYes. It is an excellent resource.
God Bless,
---Introibo
Introibo
ReplyDeleteIn your dating life,would you have courted a woman who rejected you after she and her parents knew you were interested in her and got a boyfriend who then flaunted him in front of you.That boyfriend then ended their friendship and then this woman started to pursue you.
How have you and your readers coped with rejection in your dating life?
Thank you and God bless
If that young woman and her parents were aware you were serious about marrying her, then I'd say good for both of the young men who stopped dating her. What she did at the instigation of her parents, I assume, was childish and cruel. She should've honestly talked to the man she apprarently wasn't interested in dating anymore face to face instead of playing mean games.
DeleteSo now she's been rejected by the man she used as a trophy to humiliate you and changes her mind about how she feels about you after all? That young woman is at least emotionally immature if not unstable, manipulative and easily manipulated herself with regards to her parents' behavior too. No spouse material for sure. I think both you and the pal whom she used as a bait boyfriend to make you jealous or whatever she had in mind were spared a life of unhappiness with her.
God Bless You,
Joanna
@anon9:49
DeleteI agree 100% with Joanna. I would tell the woman to get lost.
God Bless,
---Introibo
Does anyone know...my traditional calendar says last week was Ember week and the Liturgical Year says this week? My calendar is pre 55. Thanks.
ReplyDelete@anon9:23
DeleteLast week were the Ember Days of Autumn.
God Bless,
---Introibo
In 1952, the feast of the Holy Cross fell on Sunday, September 14th. In 1952, Michaelmas Embertide was on Wednesday, 9/24, Friday 9/26, and Saturday 9/27.
DeleteAnon@8:48 AM
DeleteAre you sure?
This excerpt from a 1952 Catholic newspaper says the Ember Days were 9/17, 9/19, and 9/20: https://www.thecatholicnewsarchive.org/?a=d&d=cst19521212-01.2.4&e=-------en-20--1--txt-txIN--------
www.traditio.com/comment/com2509.htm
ReplyDeleteIn the conclusion of the blog post above, Introibo states that "there remain only nine valid bishops in the Latin Rite of the Vatican II sect." - According to the Traditio post indicated above, and dated Sept. 30, 2025, that number is now 7, not 9. Traditio is not always completely accurate, but one of the nine just died on Sept. 23. Montini was canonized. St. Paul 6(66).
@anon4:47
DeleteThe Traditio "Fathers" are almost correct. With that death, the number of valid bishops is eight. They failed to take into consideration Bp. Fernando Rifan. Bishop Rifan, was ordained in the Traditional Rite of priestly ordination on December 8, 1974 by Bishop Castro de Mayer, who bravely kept the Faith in his diocese of Campos, Brazil until he was ousted by Wojtyla in 1981. He was co-consecrator of the four SSPX bishops in 1988. When the good bishop passed in 1991, his Society of St. John Vianney (think Brazillian SSPX) asked Bp. Fellay to consecrate a bishop for them.
Bp. Fellay agreed and Bishop Tissier de Mallerais as consecrator, with Bishops Williamson and de Galarreta consecrated Fr. Lucinio Rangel as a bishop in the Traditional Rite on July 28, 1991. about nine years later, Bp. Rangel became seriously ill, and not having accepted sedevacantism, apostatized to the Vatican II sect. Some priests apostatized with him. Wojtyla said he would order one of the apostates as a bishop in the Traditional Rite to replace Bp. Rangel when he died. The bishop chose Fr. Rifan. Wojtyla picked an invalid consecrator, invalid co-consecrator, but allowed Rangel to be the second co-consecrator.
The Traditional Rite was used on August 18, 2002--and since Bp. Rangel was a valid Bishop using proper matter, form and had the right intention (and Rifan being a valid priest) Rifan became validly consecrated through Bp. Rangel who died later that year. It was the only valid consecration since June 17, 1968. Bp. Rifan is the youngest of the 8 remaining bishops, as he turns 75 next month.
God Bless,
---Introibo
There’s no proof that any these bishops ever joined a sect. These are only Roman rite, btw, for pre-68 bishops, as there are hundreds of eastern rite Catholic bishops.
Delete@anon11:07
DeleteYou write: There’s no proof that any these bishops ever joined a sect.
Reply: Yes, they all are members of the Vatican II sect and accept the heresies of the Robber Council. How much more proof is needed?
You write: These are only Roman rite, btw, for pre-68 bishops, as there are hundreds of eastern rite Catholic bishops.
Reply; In 1990, the Eastern Rites were "updated" to be in step with Vatican II. Did the changes affect the validity of Holy Orders? At least one priest to whom I spoke thinks it did.
Without doing much research, I must assume them dubious at best.
God Bless,
---Introibo
Joanna
ReplyDeleteYou gave a good response to that man's comment.I would feel totally sick and upset if that behaviour happen to me.But I have heard this has happened to others.I am middle-aged and single.I have had a fair amount of disappointment too and often the woman I have become interested in the parents wanted someone better.I have seen several of the woman who rejected me end up in bad marriages.I look back now and realise God was protecting me.
Nice to hear from you Joanna.I would love to visit Poland one day.I like your food(smile)
God bless you
Thank you for your kind words!
DeletePoland is a beautiful country. It breaks my heart that there is not a single sedevacantist church or chapel in my country that operates the way good sedevacantist parishes do in the US. I cannot imagine raising a family without having access to the Mass and the Sacraments on some regular basis, and the advice of a well-trained priest.
God Bless You,
Joanna
Introibo
ReplyDeleteSomeone above made the comment above.Have you or your readers in your dating life faced rejection and how did you cope with it.Your thoughts.
Thank you and God bless
A Young Man
A Young Man,
DeleteI have had my share of rejection. A wise friend of mine told me "rejection is often God's protection." True words. If the woman doesn't want to be with you, you can't force it, and you shouldn't want it any other way. Would you want to hang out with a male friend who doesn't think highly of you and want to be your good friend?
I was always ready to accept God's Will. Maybe the single life was for me. If not, I'll find someone who can reciprocate my love and it isn't someone who rejects me. It will happen in God's timeline, not mine.
It was a long time until I met my wife. It was well worth the wait! Pray for the grace to know your vocation, and to discern God's Will in all things.
Your in my prayers, my friend!
God Bless,
---Introibo
A Young Man,
DeleteI cannot speak for Introibo, but I can speak for myself. Yes, I have had my share of problems with the dating scene. There have been a few times that I felt very strongly that I met the person who very easily could have become my wife, only for it to end very badly for one reason or another with different females that God put into my life. I have taken this to mean that God has meant for me to stay single; maybe not forever, but single for now. A person will change over time. The way you think as a teen-ager will change in your 20’s, then in your 30’s, then in your 40’s, and so on. What was important to you at one time in your life may eventually become something not that high on your list as you get older. I believe that these are the most trying times ever in Christianity in trying to meet someone as a marriage partner. How have I handled rejection? I would say that I tried to handle it as best I could. No one likes to be rejected and it is a hard thing to go through. There have been several females over the course of my life (not in large number but in decent number) that I really felt could have possibly been the marriage partner that God wanted me to end up with. In every scenario, none of them came to fruition.
On a personal level, what makes this more difficult is the small number of not only traditionalists out there, but traditionalists that would make a suitable partner for me. I know many devout people in the Novus Ordo, who naturally outnumber those in the traditionalist camp, but would a Novus Ordo female eventually convert to my side? That is a tough question and I am not sure. Honestly, I don’t have a lot of hope there, only because of what I have already seen. There have been a few Novus Ordo’s that were very devout in their faith but none of them came over to my side, despite the fact that I invested a lot of time and energy in trying to charitably help them come to the Truth. To date, none of them have. This is what makes me doubtful that it will happen. Still, anything is possible and maybe one day one of them will have a “breakthrough” and see the light. These things take time. I would just simply focus on being the best possible person you can be and leave everything in God’s hands. Develop a strong prayer routine and do not force anything. Many times in life things like this come to fruition when you least expect it. And if it never comes to fruition the way that you hope for, then you have to be resigned to the fact that this is not God’s will for you in your life. Try not to fret too much over it. Just focus on growing closer to God and growing in your Faith and you will be okay.
I hope this helps you.
God bless you,
-TradWarrior
Introibo,
ReplyDeleteI thought I’d share something that has been really on my mind, I say this as someone who in many ways admires Archbishop Lefebvre.
I know he wasn’t perfect, but I personally felt despite his shortcomings he had many saintly qualities looking back at his life. When I embraced the true faith, I had a period of time where I was angered and took to heart many of the grievances against him. But it wasn’t until I met Fr. Peter Lemay who knew the Archbishop and had many personal conversations with the Archbishop when he was very sick and dying. He was the last American priest to be ordained by him.
Fr. Lemay softened me and in many ways showed me that we can’t hold his shortcomings against him. He did what he could and acted in a way he had to.
What bothers is me as how some people can’t let go of his short comings, and I think sadly (and I won’t name anyone in particular) due to certain priests making a big deal of his mistakes. It has created a sanitization ideology of anything to do with Lefebvre.
I write this, because I feel for me as someone who is Gen Z with Autism and never knew the Archbishop. I appreciate all that he did and in some ways I wouldn’t be sedevacantist if it wasn’t for his legacy. For me he is a role model despite his shortcomings. I don’t have many role models in this modern world, but out of all of them, the Archbishop stands out to me.
May God Bless you,
Jeremy Van Auker
I too have those same thoughts Jeremy.It is sad that Bishop Fellay changed the direction of the SSPX.
DeleteWhat year was Father Lemay ordained?After his ordination where did he get posted?When did he leave the SSPX and his reasons?
I just watched the talk Bishop Sanborn gave at Sacred Heart Church.What a wonderful parish.Your church is very nice.
God bless you Jeremy
Jeremy,
DeleteYou bring up many great points. Archbishop Lefebvre has become a punching bag for many traditionalist clergy and lay people alike, and I think that it goes too far at times. He definitely made his share of mistakes, but then again, don’t we all? He wanted the “hardliners” in his seminary to remain silent about their Sedevacantist position that they adopted over time, even though he knew that it was a very probable theory, and could explain the entire crisis quite well. Still, he was hopeful to reunite with modernist Rome, which was one of his biggest mistakes. The R & R position of the SSPX has only gotten worse and worse over time and with Bishop Fellay now, they seem to want to be reconciled more and more with the V2 sect. The SSPX is all over the place. Many people have said that if Archbishop Lefebvre was alive today that he would be a Sedevacantist. I tend to think that may be true, but who knows? It’s anyone’s guess.
There are many people that were very helpful to me in my own theological formation over time. There were some Novus Ordo’s that I learned a lot from and that helped lead me to some R & R people that helped take me “even farther” in my journey, until I finally reached Sedevacantism as the true position. I would very much include Archbishop Lefebvre and Fr. Malachi Martin as being instrumental to leading me down the path I finally arrived at. Much good and bad have been said about both men, but I learned a LOT by reading both of them and they were huge “stepping stones” (and very important ones) along the way on my path to the Truth. Even among Sedevacantists, I have learned so much from so many of them including Fr. Cekada, Bishop Sanborn, Bishop Dolan, Fr. Jenkins, Bishop Pivarunas, the Fr. Radecki brothers, and many others too. They all do not agree on many things, but this is to be expected without a pope to guide us for so long now. There are many squabbles among the Sede camps and sometimes they argue quite vehemently with each other! One of the biggest problems is that hindsight is always 20/20 and it’s easy to say now, “Shouldn’t Bishop X or Fr. Y have known this years ago?” No, that is not always the case. For example, Pope Pius IX, Pope Leo XIII, and Pope St. Pius X were all very good popes. Many people see Leo XIII as being “softer” to the modern world than his immediate predecessor and successor. While I understand why many make this claim, Leo XIII did many wonderful things in his very lengthy papacy. Recently, Bishop Sanborn spoke about how Leo XIII handled many temporal matters in his day very poorly and said that he would grade him an “F” on how he handled many of these matters. I am not nearly as harsh on Leo XIII and I say to myself, “Could I have done any better if I was in Leo XIII’s position?” I sincerely doubt it! Or take Pope Pius XII. He gets criticized for many things too and in my opinion, he was a wonderful pope on so many levels. He was seen as a saint, diplomat, and scholar – 3 things that most popes were not. He was human and made his share of mistakes but again, to say that he was wrong on implementing his 1955 Holy Week revisions is to claim a power that one does not have. People are entitled to their own opinions, yet he was protected by The Holy Ghost because indefectibility extends to the Church’s general discipline. If Bugnini poisoned the liturgy as a member of the pontifical liturgical commission (which is impossible because again, The Holy Ghost protects the Catholic Church here from giving something erroneous or evil in Her teachings), then why stop there? Couldn’t one make the claim that Cardinal Rampolla, a Freemason, tainted the work of Leo XIII since he served as his Secretary of State?
CONTINUED…We live in difficult times and all men have faults. Fr. Cekada at times displayed a “Follow me or die” attitude. Bishop Sanborn rejects the liturgical changes of Pius XII, thinks of the Thesis as a fact that shouldn’t be disputed (he comes across with this very strongly at times, even though it is just a thesis), and he has a very strict anti-Una Cum stance that other Sedevacantist clergy see as completely ridiculous. Malachi Martin has been called a chameleon and that has been a fair critique of him whether one sees him more favorable or unfavorable. Archbishop Lefebvre went back and forth with rejecting modernist Rome to wanting to be reconciled with modernist Rome. All men have faults and without a true pope to guide us in these times, patience is definitely needed. St. Augustine’s words are more important in these times than ever before, “In essentials, unity; in non-essentials, liberty; in all things, charity.”
DeleteGod Bless you,
-TradWarrior
Jeremy,
DeleteTradWarrior says it well. My spiritual father, Fr. DePauw, was often criticized for many things. "Why didn't he openly profess sedevacantism?--etc." It's easy to play "Monday morning quarterback" and say what SHOULD have been done when (a)you weren't there and (b) don't know all that went on.
He did the best he could, and we have the Faith as God worked through Father. The same can be said of Abp. Lefebvre doing the best he could at the time.
In my prayers always, Jeremy!
God Bless,
---Introibo
The above blog post of Sept. 22, criticizing Alexis Bugnolo, had its origin in a comment made to the Aug. 4, 2025 post of this blog (= Contending... Pt. 42). That comment was dated on Aug. 10 at 1:44AM, and followed by a string of 4 other comments, one indicating where Bugnolo was previously mentioned in prior comments made in this blog. Bugnolo is now hard at work on another conclave to produce yet another pope for us. One wonders if this next pontiff will be a true bishop, and if not, in light of the above blog post, who will consecrate him to be a true bishop.
ReplyDeleteIn response to 3:14, perhaps Palmarian .org "Pope" Peter III will consecrate Bugnolo (per saltum?) to be a Roman Pontiff? Who knows? Moreover, Mario Derksen is either totally (or generally) in favor of Thuc-ite line ordinations as being valid, in contrast to his stance about post-1968 Latin Rite V2 sect line validity. Given that Thuc-ite is Latin Rite, and that likely pre-1968 Catholic ordinals were used to consecrate dozens of Palmarians as bishops, Bugnolo would appear to have plenty of options, aside from Fellay and Pivarunas, to get himself bishoped, should that be the plan. But I doubt that is his plan. Actually, who knows what Bugnolo's most recent conclave strategies and plans are really all about?? A vague "Trust the plan" is a famous Q-Anon slogan. As it turned out, it seems that few if any of the plans or advice of "Q" worked out in any beneficial way(s). "Q" went on to become just a discredited conspiracy theorist. And Bugnolo's previous conclave, electing Bergoglio, totally discredited him. But he seemingly hasn't figured that out yet. In red text in the above blog post we read Bugnolo ranting in his own words about "conspiracy theories about invalid conclaves". In other words, he's a self-appointed expert when it comes to Catholic conclaves. So trust him. Just trust the plan.
Delete@anon10:59
DeleteJust as an FYI:
* Palmarian ordinations and consecrations (other than those performed by Abp. Thuc) must be held dubious. Dominguez ("Pope" Gregory) was an illiterate chicken farmer. It was "revealed to him" that after Latin, God's favorite language was Spanish (imagine that!),
He then "translated" all the sacramental rites into Spanish. Did he get it correct? They obviously have no papal approbation, so must be considered invalid.
* A layman or deacon can not be consecrated "per saltum." It would be dubious and must be treated as invalid in the practical order.
---Introibo
https://romalocutaest.com/2023/01/29/the-bugnolo-files/
DeleteThis webpage contains an archive (of now) 9 Bugnolo articles, and some introductory information about them. Bugnolo is the subject of the above blog post, as can be seen by reading the first 3 paragraphs of it.
TradWarrior
ReplyDeleteI am new to this blog.I like your comments above about dating.
In your experience,what are red flags you always looked out for?
Being single I do find more time for prayers,devotions and good spiritual reading.
Thanks and God bless
@anon8:54am,
DeleteThank you for writing to me. I will always try and make time answering any questions that are directed my way.
Well, there can be many red flags in general that one needs to look out for. I will list these from a male perspective, but they can obviously go the other way too. Some questions to consider would be the following:
Is the person being honest with you? What is her relationship like with their family? Does she show any signs of hypocrisy where she says one thing but then does another? Have you ever caught her in lies? Does she value marriage and family? Is she trustworthy in small matters (if so, she will hopefully be trustworthy in larger matters)? Do you have a strong connection spiritually, intellectually, emotionally, physically? The list of good questions can go on and on.
In regards to my last point, I place a stronger emphasis on the spiritual and intellectual connection than the emotional and physical connection. But on some level, they all matter. You have to have someone on the same wavelength with you emotionally and you want to be physically attracted to the person. This does not mean that the person needs to be a model or anything like that and “beauty is very much in the eye of the beholder.” Male “A” may be attracted to this female while Male “B” is more attracted to that female for various reasons. This will vary from individual to individual.
The spiritual and intellectual connection is more important to me. Do we share very similar religious values? This is the hard part because there are not a lot of traditionalists to pool from. Even among several traditionalist females that I have met, I have not been attracted to most of them. But matters of the Faith are very important and this is the crux of the relationship, especially if this will lead to marriage. I have witnessed many people throughout the years in bad marriages. I have seen people in second and third so called “marriages” a lot!
If you are looking outside the Traditional Catholic Faith, this presents challenges. How likely is the female to convert to your side? Is she open to the traditional Faith? These are questions that have to be looked at and discussed very carefully before ever saying “I Do.” When I say I am interested in an intellectual conversation, I do not mean that I am looking for a “brainiac” so to speak, just someone that has intellectual depth to them and is willing to engage in intellectual discussions about the faith and just other matters in life in general. She doesn’t have to have an IQ of 190, so to speak (Lol). But yes, the religious and intellectual components are at the forefront of what I look for. Naturally, you want to find someone that you are physically attracted to but physical looks will change over time and that’s not the defining thing that will hold a marriage together.
In terms of females that I have personally known, I can share a couple of different scenarios with you. This is just a sampling.
Female #1 was a nice person. She wanted to marry me. I knew that we were not compatible and that we were not meant to be together. She took the breakup very hard. I am glad that I did not marry her but I wish her all the best (she is married today). This was back when I was in the Novus Ordo. She is still Novus Ordo. Had I married her, I would never have continued down the Faith path that I did and ended up a traditionalist. This was very clear and I consider this as one of the many times where God was definitely looking out for me. She also wanted me to meet her parents VERY quickly which I was not comfortable doing. She was looking to move quickly into marriage; whereas, I was not. No one is perfect and there are things in hindsight that I definitely could have handled better, but this relationship not ending up in marriage was definitely for the best.
CONTINUED…Female #2 was an ideal match for me in absolutely astounding ways! This person and I never dated. We just struck up a friendship that was so unearthly that it was noticeable to everyone that we had SO MUCH in common! This is very difficult to express in a short comment but we literally had about a 1 in 1 billion connection! It was not a 1 in 1,000 or 1 in 1 million connection. If we would have had 5-6 or 10-12 things in common, that would have been amazing. We went WAY beyond that! We probably had about 50 different things in common and our paths crossing literally was like 1 in a billion! It was earth shattering! We had more in common than twins do. The connection was instantaneous and unlike anything I, she, or anyone else that witnessed this has EVER seen! I cannot say much more than that on this matter because I still do not know how to process the connection that we had. We never dated, but the thought crossed our minds. It ended badly, but it was not meant to be to continue. There was one big problem and it bothered both of us tremendously! There was a significant age difference between us. The older a couple gets, the less an age difference matters, but back then at these ages, it was not going to work. We both wished that we could have been closer in age by a few years. It was like God was playing a cruel joke on us! This whole situation still bothers me for many different reasons, but there is nothing I could do about it. Again, I saw the hand of God behind this. Had that relationship worked out, just like Female #1, I would not be a Sedevacantist today. To God, having the True Faith supersedes everything else, including earthly relationships. Why our paths crossed and in the crazy manner in which we connected is something I will never understand in this life. She is now married.
DeleteFemale #3 was very similar to me in many ways. We had many good and deep discussions about the Faith. We were very much on the same wavelength in terms of our outlook on the Catholic Faith and our personalities. Her mom wanted us to get married. We blended very well. She understood the Faith FAR better than most. Over time, she learned that I was a Sedevacantist. She is one of a VERY few that I revealed this too. She could not make that jump from the Novus Ordo. It was too much for her. I spent a lot of time defending the traditional Faith to her in texts and emails and she and I both know a LOT of Novus Ordo clergymen. There was one in particular that she was very close to. I asked her, “Who do you agree with, him or me?” She said, “I agree with you. No one has your knowledge.” She knew full well if she brought any (of the MANY) Novus Ordo priests to have a discussion/debate with me over the various Novus Ordo/Sedevacantist dividing theological issues what the result would be. She had no answer and unfortunately she has remained in the Novus Ordo (although she is more of an R & R). She joined a Novus Ordo religious order. She could never respond to Sedevacantism and she even admitted several times the Sedevacantist position makes perfect sense, yet she failed to make that jump. Most people are just not going to cross that line. I wonder if she will last in her religious order and furthermore, if we ever see each other again, what our conversation would be like?
CONTINUED…Female #4 was a Sedevacantist. She seemed ideal in many ways but she was not. At times, she was friendly and other times she was very standoffish. I could not figure her out. There were several other red flags about her that I did not like that I will not go into. Just because someone is a Sedevacantist does not mean that this person will be right for you. They can have the traditional Faith and seem good on paper, but in reality, it can be a completely different story. There have been many traditionalists that I just do not blend well with at all.
DeleteFemale #5 I have never seen again. It was after a tragedy. I hope to one day see her again. Her whereabouts remain unknown.
This is just a sampling of some of the females that have been in and out of my life. I enjoy the single life. I feel that it is very possible that I will be single forever. I remain open to marriage and a family but God will have to make this very clear if this is His will for my life.
I have also lost many friends and acquaintances over the years. There were several relationships that were forever shattered. But in the end, I gained the pearl of great price, as Scripture talks about. I gained the Traditional Faith. Unfortunately, it came with many, many scars.
I hope that my writings here have been helpful to you and others.
God bless you. Stay strong in the Faith!
-TradWarrior
Introibo:
ReplyDeleteDid Fr. DePauw accept the validity of the Thuc line?
Thuc's "line" = "point of view", about what?
DeleteThuc advocated for women priests at V2!
"Thuc line" (singular) = "episcopal lineages" (plural)?
As per Cekada, there was a bishop in every garage!
There is a 10:59 comment above about Palmarians.
@anon2:14
DeleteFr. DePauw did not comment on such. You could ask him about INDIVIDUAL clergymen and he would tell you if he thought them to be valid. He said he knew things the average person did not about most clergymen--either directly or through trusted contacts. It was "case by case" basis.
God Bless,
---Introibo
@anon7:29
DeleteWhat does Thuc's stance on things have to do with the validity of his ordinations/consecrations? Archbishop Lefebvre ordained Juan Fernandez Krohn, a mentally unstable man to the priesthood. He attempted to assassinate Wojtyla in 1982. After serving jail time, he abandoned his vows, married a Portuguese journalist, and had an illegitimate child with a Belgium woman. He was subsequently jailed for other run-ins with the law. Should we blame the Archbishop? Does that make his ordinations invalid? He also ordained another man a priest who left to be a practicing sodomite. Abp. Lefebvre's fault again? Good prelates sometimes make bad decisions on who gets ordained, and popes are not protected from making bad choices for bishops. Christ made that clear when He chose Judas--knowing as God the kind of man he was.
Fr. Cekada, whom you cite, recanted his position upon further investigation and accepts the Thuc line as valid.
---Introibo
Hi TradWarrior
ReplyDeleteThank you for your great response to my question about dating red flags.
Once several years ago while still in the Novus Ordo myself(in my late 20's) and some other middle aged people were bringing in supplies from a room to the parish hall after morning tea to make up boxes of food to give away at Christmas time to poor familes.There were three or four young woman about my age who had their parents helping while they sat away in the corner glued to their phones.I thought how lazy.What would they be like if you were married to one of them.Does this surprise you.
Another important red flag is the womans view about children.How is she with other people's children.
Thanks again for your great response.
@anon6:24pm
DeleteUnfortunately, many younger millennials and Gen Z’s are glued to their phones. I see it all the time. You are correct. And yes, how a woman is with other people’s children is a good indicator of what she will be like in marriage. That is a very astute point.
God Bless You,
-TradWarrior
TradWarrior
ReplyDeleteMay I ask what was the age gap between you and that woman?What age gap would you say is okay and which is not good.Excellent reply to that question above to you about red flags.You are a great help with advice for us all in this vale of tears.God bless you always
C.T.
C.T.,
DeleteThank you for the comment. The age gap was between 10-15 years. It was too much at the time. She was younger than me and her maturity level was not there. I won’t go into the specific ages, but she lacked maturity and I cannot fault her for that due to her young age at the time. If we had been older, it could have worked out. Still, it was very heartbreaking because our connection was absolutely amazing!
After this happened, I have done so much reading of different people’s opinions online and what people’s thoughts were as it related to an age gap. There have been success stories with people of different ages but it can be hard. For a 10 year age gap, if you are dealing with a 20 year old and a 30 year old, 10 years is too much. A 30 year old and a 40 year old could work. 40 and 50 is even better. In these scenarios, I am considering the case of the male being older than the female. There is not a one size fits all with this though. Introibo’s response below about his opinion on the age gap is pretty good.
God Bless You,
-TradWarrior
Introibo,did Father DePauw have any contact with the SSPV at Oyster Bay over the years?What about other independent priests?Do you think Father would have made a good Bishop?
ReplyDelete@anon7:07
DeleteBp. Kelly asked Father's advice from the 1960s. Fr. DePauw really got angry when newly ordained Fr. Kelly set up a "Mass center" in a relative's garage near the Ave Maria Chapel. "Of all the places that need a priest, he offers Mass only a few miles away from me?"
Nevertheless, when I asked him what he thought of Bishop Kelly in the 1990s, he simply shrugged. Fr had many contacts with independent priests. You could hardly mention a name he did not know personally or from other priests he knew.
I think Fr would have made an excellent bishop, but he disagreed--wanting to remain a humble priest. He was offered a valid consecration (albeit illicit) from a valid Old Catholic bishop in the Netherlands on August 1, 1967. He rejected the offer and told the bishop to join the One True Church.
God Bless,
---Introibo
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ngo_Dinh_Thuc
ReplyDeletehttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Thuc_line_bishops
There is a 2018 book cited in the bibliography of the first wiki source, titled: "Sede Vacante : The Life and Legacy of Archbishop Thuc". The following is from Google AI Overview: "This instruction (= in 1 Timothy 5:22 to be cautious and deliberate before ordaining someone or performing the spiritual act of "laying on of hands" for ordination) also warns that by hastily ordaining someone, you could become a participant in their future sins or failures. It's crucial to ensure the candidate's suitability to prevent negative consequences for the church." -- This is understood even by so-called AI. What Arbp. Thuc understood 1 Timothy 5:22 to mean, is an interesting issue to speculate upon.
@anon10:08
DeleteYes, Abp. Thuc was all over the place--very confused in very confusing times. That proves nothing as to validity. To be clear, the Palmar de Troya fiasco originated with Archbishop Lefebvre. He was approached by representatives of Clemente Dominguez. He told them to see Thuc--and called Abp. Thucx, telling them HE (Lefebvre) thought "there might be something to it (the so-called apparitions)."
God Bless,
---Introibo
The issues concerning Thuc are discussed in the excellent study of Mario Derkson-An open letter to Bishop Clarence Kelly on the errors in the Sacred and the Profane.
ReplyDeleteGreat thoughts TradWarrior on dating.I too am still single and have been heartbroken a number of times.I just keep trusting in God and his holy will for me.God bless
@anon6:20
DeleteMr. Derksen's study is top-tier!
Praying for you, my friend.
God Bless,
---Introibo
@anon6:20am
DeleteThank you for the compliment. I am sorry to hear that you too have been heartbroken. Sooner or later, it happens to everyone, and in many people’s cases, it happens more than once. It certainly has been in my life. I will keep you in my prayers.
God Bless You,
-TradWarrior
Introibo
ReplyDeleteSomeone made the comment about age gaps in marriage.What gap do you think is acceptable?
@anon5:15
DeleteIt depends on their age when they meet. For 18-35, a gap of no more than 5 years. For 36-50 a gap of no more than 10 years. 51 and older, a gap of no more than 15 years. This is only my personal opinion--and nothing more!!
God Bless,
---Introibo
Who are the nine validly ordained Bishops in the Roman Rite?
ReplyDelete@anon1:15
DeleteThere are now only EIGHT validly consecrated bishops--one died two days after I published this post. I will list them here with their age (as of this year) and year of consecration in parenthesis.
1. Bishop de la Parra of Mexico (103/1961)--he is the only Bishop left who was consecrated prior to Vatican II
2. Bishop Youn Kong-hi of South Korea (101/1963)
3. Bishop Arinze of Nigeria (93/1965)--made "Cardinal" by Wojtyla
4. Bishop Marchetti Fedalto of Brazil (99/1966)
5. Bishop da Cruz of Brazil (101/1966)
6. Bishop da Silva Chaves of Brazil (95/1968--4 months before the Pauline Rite took effect)
7. Bishop Trejos Picado of Costa Rico (97/1968---3 months before Pauline Rite took effect)
8. Bishop Rifan of Brazil (75/2002---rare circumstance I explained in comments above--Traditional Rite with valid consecrator and he was a valid priest).
Half of them are Brazilian--must be good genes in Brazil!!
God Bless,
---Introibo
https://www.catholic-hierarchy.org/rite/
Deleteis a listing of the 23 Eastern Catholic Churches. The wiki article for them would be "Eastern Catholic Churches". The comment of Introibo above (Sept. 25 at 7:58) that "In 1990, the Eastern Rites [= of ordination] were 'updated' to be in step with Vatican II" strikes me as being superficial and/or misleading. 1990 is the date a code of canon law was issued for the Eastern rites, following an updated Western (= Latin / Roman) code of 1983. The pre-V2 dates of these codes were 1917 (Latin) and 1940s (Eastern, published in the AAS). These are NOT the dates revised ordination rites were enacted. The subject of whether post-V2 changes to ordination rites of the Eastern Churches, invalidated them, would need to be addressed in each individual case. I'm not aware that any website is doing so, aside, perhaps, from bits and pieces of info that might be found at rore-sanctifica.org , a website now 20 years old.
Of particular note in regard to this subject are three NOW (= Novus Ordo Watch) wire blog posts: of 18 June 2018 (= "Unholy Orders: 50 Years of Invalid Ordinations in the Novus Ordo Church"); and 20 Feb. 2019 (= "They are really not Bishops" (part 3)); and 16 Feb. 2023 (= "Was Bishop Rene Gracida consecrated in the Traditional Rite?").
Furthermore, the Novus Latin ritual was promulgated and allowed to be used, starting on 18 June 1968, but was made mandatory for use on 6 April 1969. There appear to be 3 still alive Novus Ordo Latin Rite bishops who were consecrated between these two dates:
Daniel Anthony Cronin (12 Sept. 1968)
Friedrich Card. Wetter (29 June 1968)
Jean-Bapt. Kpiele Some (18 Jan. 1969)
These three could have been consecrated utilizing either the old or the new ordinal. You can confirm that by consulting the .org website noted on the top line of this comment, under the category of "bishops" and subcategory "oldest".
@anon9:53
DeleteI have it on the authority of a priest with advanced training that tampering with the Rites of Holy Orders in the Eastern Rites took place the same year as their new code: 1990; and he considered them dubious. Again, I have not studied the issue in depth.
Yes, the three bishops you list MIGHT have been consecrated in the Traditional Rite, however the Modernists were very eager to use the new Rite--and unless there is incontrovertible proof that the Traditional Rite WAS used, I consider them dubious.
God Bless,
---Introibo
Thanks Introibo.Have you ever heard of situations like a 50 year old man marrying a 26 year old?I think there would be problems.
ReplyDelete@anon4:11
DeleteSure. I knew a marriage where a 50 year old married an 18 year old--arranged by parents. There are a plethora of problems for such marriages. Yes, there are exceptions, but a 50 year old should not ever marry below 35; a 40 year old would be much better.
God Bless,
---Introibo
I have always been worried about the new ordination rite.There was a great recent hour long talk by Father Geckle on Catholc Family Podcast which went into great detail.I would suggest people watch it.
ReplyDelete@anon3:18
DeleteThank you for the information!
God Bless,
---Introibo
https://www.wmreview.org/p/newmans-anglican-orders-commentary , is a article by S.D. Wright, dated July 29, 2024, and titled "Cardinal Newman on Anglican orders -- applied to Novus Ordo orders". In the middle of that article, one can click on a download button to download a 2.09 megabyte pdf file, dated May 20, 2020, titled "Magna Carta of Apostolic Succession Amidst Sedevacantist Orders". That chart can also be found on the webpage
ReplyDeletehttps://www.cathinfo.com/catholic-living-in-the-modern-world/traditional-clergy-consecration-lines-chart/
There are a number of charts there, which you can click upon to enlarge. There are a fairly large number of Latin Rite real (and also pretender too ?!?) bishops, outside of the post-V2 modern Vatican sanctioned Novus Ordo establishment. So many of these guys are/were real bishops -- whereas Ratzinger, Bergoglio and Prevost, never actually became ordained as real bishops.
@anon11:55
DeleteThank you for the links!
God Bless,
---Introibo
Louie Verrecchio wrote a post on his blog last year that makes a pretty solid case for the validity of the 1968 Episcopal Rite of Consecration, which includes an analysis of Fr. Cekada’s essay on the subject. You can read it here:
ReplyDeletehttps://akacatholic.com/the-1968-rite-of-episcopal-consecration-valid/
@anon3:46
DeleteYes, I read Mr. Verrecchio's post. Although I have much respect for him, I must disagree--he get's it wrong.
1. He never even attempts to address the disunity in matter and form. That alone would make the consecration invalid--or dubious at best.
2. As to the rest, he agrees that Fr. Cekada is right about the principle: the form must univocally state BOTH the order being conferred AND the grace of the Holy Ghost.
He writes: "Looking at this sentence without bias, it must be acknowledged that the “governing Spirit” is essentially defined in the text itself, we are given to understand that this refers to the Spirit received by Jesus Christ as true man by God, the same Spirit given by Our Lord to the Apostles.
Is there any room for doubt that being conferred here is the grace of the Holy Ghost? No, of course not. In fact, the “Spirit” (capital “S”) is mentioned by name twice in the text. I’d say that it does more than merely “seem to signify the grace of the Holy Ghost” as Fr. Cekada suggests."
Reply; Ad arguendo, I concede the grace of the Holy Ghost is invoked. What about the order of bishop? Louis writes: "As for the end for which the grace of the Holy Ghost is being given in the new rite, Fr. Cekada overlooked the phrase “the Spirit given by him to the holy apostles.”
Just as every Catholic knows full well that “the fullness of Our Lord’s priestly ministry” as mentioned in the traditional rite refers to the episcopacy, so too do we know perfectly well that the grace bestowed on the Holy Apostles by Christ – which gave them the power to govern and to establish the Church throughout the world – continues in the bishops. We call the bishops Successors to the Apostles for this very reason. "
Reply: The Rite must univocally declare THE ORDER being given. The ability to govern and establish the Church is a power of JURISDICTION, and not one given by Holy Orders. It is sacramental power (such as ordaining priests) that must be invoked--not jurisdictional power that is added to it when the bishop is given a diocese to run by the pope. The Apostles founded churches only because they enjoyed an extraordinary jurisdiction to do so. Theologian Dorsch says specifically that this power is not communicated to bishops: “not all those functions proper to the apostles are also proper to bishops — for example, to establish new churches.” (See De Ecclesia Christi, [1928], pg. 290).
Therefore, the Pauline Rite is still null and still void!
God Bless,
---Introibo
https://www.wmreview.org/p/valid-sacraments
ReplyDeleteappears to be the best overall resource online about the subject matter of this blog post. It is a 2024 sede source, subject to continual updating. The article title is "Valid Sacraments? Index of Articles", and is a hypertext-linked archive of literature, said to have S.D. Wright as a compiler. The overall thesis of this webpage = "To preserve sacramental integrity, safeguard the common good, and secure peace of conscience for all , the only possible course is a systematic programme of (at least) conditional ordination / consecration of clerics whose orders depend on the validity of novus ordo rites."