The Vatican Council of 1870, in its Dogmatic Constitution Dei Filius, decrees:
The same Holy Mother Church holds and teaches that God, the beginning and end of all things, can be known with certitude by the natural light of human reason from created things; "for the invisible things of him, from the creation of the world, are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made" [ Rom 1:20]...
Canon I. If anyone says that the one, true God, our Creator and Lord, cannot be known with certainty from the things that have been made, by the natural light of human reason: let him be anathema. (Emphasis mine).
Why then, are there atheists? A few preliminary remarks need to be made. Atheism is the denial of God's reality. Atheism may be subdivided into theoretical and practical. Theoretical atheism is based on judgments of the intellect. Practical atheism is a term for those who deny God in the practical order. They may give God lip service, but in the practical order, they never really give Him any consideration and behave as if He didn't exist. "Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father Who is in Heaven will enter." (St. Matthew 7:21).
Absolute and invincible ignorance of the existence of God, in principle, cannot be conceded because it is impossible for human reason not to ascend from the experience of the of the external world to the cause of it. The Vatican Council of 1870 makes this clear. However, since the existence of God is not immediately evident, people can fail to see the force of the arguments advanced to prove it and can, consequently, accept some contrary argument, forming a false conviction. A theoretical atheist is always guilty, at least initially, for a lack of prudence, of careful consideration, and of more accurate and dispassionate investigation. An atheist really convinced and in perfect good faith is an absurd and untenable hypothesis. (See theologian Parente, Dictionary of Dogmatic Theology [1957], pg. 24; the preliminary discussion of atheism was culled and condensed from this work).
In my personal experience, most atheists have reached their conclusion for the non-existence of God based on reasons that do not arise from the intellect, but from emotion. The most common examples:
- Medical causes. People who suffer from manic depressive states, or who are on certain types of medications, can become depressed and experience doubts because they are incapable of clear thinking. Proper medication and treatment can relieve such moods--and with it the doubt or denial over God's existence.
- Anger over life's circumstances. Frequently, people will turn on God after the death of a loved one, loss of a job, or onset of a medical condition. In these days, the COVID-19 pandemic, "Why did God allow this to happen?" We must remember that God permits things to happen for our greater good, even if we can't see it. We follow in the footsteps of a Suffering Savior.
- Judging by feelings. This is a direct result of the Modernists, who expect us to feel warm and fuzzy, because religion (according to them) is emotive. The so-called "Charismatic Movement" thrives on making faith "an experience." When someone does not (or no longer) "feels close to God," they think He's not there.
- The World. Peer-pressure from those who think you're a "religious nut," will often make people want to give up the Faith to fit in. The "New Atheists" attack religious people as "superstitious" and "dangerous," while rock and pop music, TV, and movies attack religion and religious people as "not being with it." Hypocrites in the Church who don't live the Faith will exacerbate the problem.
Finally, some people want to deny God's existence because that gives them an excuse to lead a sinful life and quell their conscience. They make up intellectual "problems" to mask their evil desires. I find this to be most especially true regarding those who wish to sin against the Sixth and Ninth Commandments.
The remainder of this post will be dedicated to examining the teleological argument. Championed as one of The Five Ways to Prove the Existence of God by the Angelic Doctor, St. Thomas Aquinas, I will give a condensed and nuanced version. I have drawn not only upon the works of Aquinas, Principles and Problems of Philosophy [1944] by theologian Ryan, but also modern non-Catholic thinkers such as Swinburne, Spitzer, Craig, Davies, etc. Why would I include heretics? To prove the Church correct in Her judgement that all human beings, using the light of human reason apart from Revelation and outside the Church, can discern the truth that God exists. Did not even Aquinas himself use the principles of pagan philosopher Aristotle in the service of the One True Church? Moreover, it proves that advances in science since the 13th century, far from "disproving God," have only added more credibility to the famous Five Ways.
I have tried to avoid technical language as much as possible to produce what (I hope) will be a readable and understandable condensed version of the teleological argument for the existence of God.
A Universe Designed By God
Teleological refers to the evidence of design and purpose in the material world. Since circa 1970, astronomers have been stunned by the discovery of how complex and delicate a balance of initial conditions must be present to permit the existence of intelligent life anywhere at all in the universe. This has been referred to as the "fine-tuning" of the universe. Many modern theists, such as Dr. William Dembski, have sought to concentrate on biological systems here on Earth, in what is commonly called "Intelligent Design Theory." However, the cutting edge of the contemporary teleological argument involves the fine-tuning of the cosmos.
There are two kinds of fine-tuning; the first involves the constants of nature, and the second involves certain arbitrary physical quantities. Both will be examined in turn.
1. Constants of nature. What is a constant? When the laws of nature are expressed as mathematical equations, you find appearing in them certain symbols that stand for unchanging quantities, like the force of gravity, and the electromagnetic force, to give but two examples. These unchanging quantities are called constants. The values of these constants are not determined by the laws of nature; they are independent of them. You could have the same laws of nature with different values leading to a very different kind of universe from what we have now.
2. Arbitrary physical quantities. In addition to the constants, there are certain arbitrary quantities that are just put in as initial conditions on which the laws of nature operate. Since the quantities are arbitrary, they're also not determined by the laws of nature. One such example is the amount of thermodynamic disorder (called entropy) there was at the beginning of the universe. It's an initial condition, and had that quantity been different, the universe would be quite different as well.
Keeping these constants in mind, consider the following:
The force of gravity is so finely tuned that an alteration of its value by even one part out of 10 to the fiftieth power (that's a 1 followed by 50 zeroes!) would have prevented a life-permitting universe. Likewise, a change in the value of the so-called cosmological constant, which drives the acceleration of the universe's expansion, by as little as one part in 10 to the one hundred twentieth power (1 followed by 120 zeroes) would also have prohibited life in the universe.
To be clear, by "life" It is meant organisms that can take in sustenance, extract energy from it, grow, adapt to its environment, and reproduce. Anything that can fulfill these functions counts as life, and in order for life (as just defined) to exist, requires the constants and quantities of the universe to be unbelievably fine-tuned, otherwise there could be no life anywhere.
Three Possibilities: Necessity, Chance, or Design
How do we account for such fine-tuning? There are only three possibilities: it was by physical necessity; it was by chance; or it was designed that way.
1. Necessity. This would require the belief that there could not be a non-life permitting universe, because the constants had to be the way they are now. This is absurd to suggest since the constants are not determined by the laws of nature. No philosopher or scientist has come up with a logical reason that the constants were required to be the way they are, and we have every indication they could have been otherwise. There is no proof of fine-tuning by necessity.
2. Chance. As explained above, the odds of a life permitting universe are incomprehensibly improbable. Atheists who say we are here by sheer luck will make an analogy to a lottery. The odds of winning are 10 million to one, but somebody has to win. Therefore, we are the lucky "lottery winners" and the prize is a life-permitting universe! The analogy is inapposite. The correct analogy is a lottery in which there are ten billion ping-pong balls in a container. All are white except for one that is orange. If a white ping-pong ball comes down the chute, you will be executed. If the orange one rolls out, your life will be spared.
The odds of any particular ball getting picked over all the others is fantastically improbable. This is the false analogy of the atheists because the theist is not trying to explain why this particular ball was picked. The relevant point is that whichever ball rolls down the chute, it is overwhelmingly more probable to be white rather than orange. Getting the orange ball is no more improbable than getting any particular ball; but it remains incomprehensibly more probable the ball will be white and not orange. So if the orange ball did come out, people would assume the lottery was rigged by someone to save your life, and it was not chance.
In the correct analogy, the concern is not why you got the particular ball, but why, against overwhelming odds, there was a "life-permitting ball." The question is not addressed by saying, "Well, some ball had to be picked." The atheist will protest, "But it's not mathematically impossible." Ok, let's look at some similar mathematical possibilities: It is mathematically possible that randomly hitting keys on a keyboard could produce Shakespeare's play Macbeth. It's mathematically possible that wind and rain erosion could produce the faces of four presidents on the side of Mount Rushmore. If you saw a copy of Macbeth, would you believe it was randomly typed or produced by a great intellect? Which is the more probable? If you saw Mount Rushmore, would you believe the faces were the random effects of erosion, or would you think someone designed and made those faces?
All indications rule out chance in favor of...
3. Design. The universe was designed for life by an immaterial Mind of Infinite Power, Whom we call God.
Atheist objection: If God designed the universe, then who designed God? The question is irrelevant. Why? Suppose someone is very sick and losing weight rapidly. After a battery of tests, they discover a parasite in the person's intestines. The doctors remove the parasite, and the sick person stops losing weight and makes a complete recovery. It is a fact that the explanation of the illness was a parasite, even if the person and his doctors have no idea how he got it or from whence it came. You don't need an "explanation of the explanation." There is further proof of God as the "Uncaused Cause," which would be too long to explain in this post.
Conclusion
The proofs are there for all to see that God exists. He is, as the Vatican Council of 1870 tells us, "Creator and Lord." Of course, there are things that unaided human reason cannot tell us about God, e.g., that He exists as a Trinity of Three Divine Persons, but only One True God. For those truths we need Divine Revelation. The Vatican II sect has reduced belief in God to emotion. Modernism denies the supernatural as an object of certain knowledge. The Modernists who challenge all rational proof of the existence of God as the First Cause of everything in existence, both material and spiritual, fall victims to a "scientific agnosticism." For these, God is something which comes forth from man's subconscious. Religion is therefore essentially about feelings, specifically what makes you feel good; if Christianity, or any other religion, is what makes you feel good and more in touch with the Divine, then it is true for you. Religion has never consisted of creeds or objective truth but of feelings. This doctrine is known as vital immanence. Religion is a feeling or sentiment that comes from a subconscious need for the Divine.
This is why the Novus Bogus "mass" has people shaking hands, hugging and kissing at the "sign of peace," and singing happy, profane songs while skipping up dressed immodestly and like slobs to get the cracker and wine. It's all about being happy and feeling good. The Vatican II sect schools, colleges, universities, and seminaries no longer teach the Five Ways, and eschew the proofs of God's existence. And why shouldn't they? Modernism leads ultimately to atheism, which according to Bergoglio, isn't a bad thing. "Atheists can go to Heaven," as he told us. Indeed, the number of atheists has risen dramatically since the Vatican II sect began. The Anti-Modernist Oath of Pope St. Pius X (required to be taken by all clergy, and abolished by Montini--Paul VI--in 1964) had as its very first Truth to be affirmed that, "I profess that God, the beginning and end of all things, can be certainly known and thus can also be demonstrated by the natural light of reason "by the things that are made" [cf. Rom. 1:20], that is, by the visible works of creation, as the cause by the effects."
It is therefore with reason that the Bible tells us, "The fool hath said in his heart: There is no God..." Psalm 13:1.
@anon3:26
ReplyDeleteYes, scientism (the belief that ONLY science provides knowledge) is pushed by many atheist scientists. Socialism and Communism also do all they can to destroy belief in God.
—-Introibo
I think the "Judging by Feelings" has its roots in the psychology movement where the emphasis is on "feelings", "if it feels good do it" philosphy and the sought after "love of self" as being the supreme be all and end all. Feelings replaced rationale and reasoning and self replaced the supreme being as man became his own God by making and choosing his own commandments.
ReplyDeleteJoAnn
Joann,
DeleteYes, many in psychology push the “feel good” agenda. Psychology was started by those already atheists (Freud, etc) and taken in by Modernism’s tenets. They then sped things up considerably, where feeing good comes before all else.
God Bless,
—-Introibo
It's hard to tell what perplexes me more: those who ardently believe that there is no Creator, or those who casually say that there is a higher power, yet demonstrate no practical curiosity about said power's existence or character.
ReplyDeleteSincerely,
A Simple Man
Simple Man,
DeleteThere’s actually a name for those who don’t care if God exists or not—apatheism. They want to live as they see fit and don’t concern themselves with God existing or not existing. In essence they are practical atheists. Actual atheists hate the very concept of God.
They refuse God’s Grace and exalt themselves instead. Like Satan, they’re Credo is “I shall not serve.”
God Bless,
—-Introibo
Ironically, in my experience with talking to people it's usually most of (not all) Novus Ordo "Catholics" and even some trads that suffer from apatheism or what I call lukewarmness. Even though many non-Catholics are quite screwed up in ever which way, they do usually show some sort of serious convictions or passion for what they believe (not all the time). It's really unfortunate when people live like there is no tomorrow, as in, no consequences for their actions, no remorse or humility if they happen to do something wrong, no intention to make reparation or penance. They not only disbelieve or pay lip service as if they believed in God, but they also don't believe in hell or if they do they don't think "God will send many people there since he is so merciful" (I've heard that alot).
Delete"Enter ye in at the narrow gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way that leadeth to destruction, and many there are who go in thereat. How narrow is the gate, and strait is the way that leadeth to life: and few there are that find it!" Matthew 7: 13-14
Lee
Lee,
DeleteI totally agree. When people talk about God’s mercy in that way, it is actually the sin of presumption. They presume they can live as they want and God will forgive them just before death. What I usually say to them is “If God’s mercy kept us out of Hell, wouldn’t God’s justice keep us out of Heaven? Do you consider yourself so holy that you DESERVE eternal happiness? Aren’t we all (except for Christ and His Mother) sinners?”
God Bless,
—-Introibo
The Olympics analogy works wonders here; no matter how much training I do, there's no way I would ever qualify or deserve to be an Olympic triathlete.
DeleteIf that's the case, then in what universe would I deserve everlasting joy in Heaven?
Sincerely,
A Simple Man
Simple Man,
DeleteExcellent analogy!
—-Introibo
A Simple Man,
Delete"those who casually say that there is a higher power, yet demonstrate no practical curiosity about said power's existence or character."
The above description reminds me of the "12 Steppers". They go around parroting their belief in a higher power and their 12 Step Programs claim to be God centered while they live like the devil and the world. Their actions do not back up their profession in the least. Is it any wonder there is such confusion, especially among the young people when they come into contact with such blatant contractions.
JoAnn
Joann,
DeleteGood point!
—-Introibo
I believe at the bottom of the majority of today's ills is "selfishness". Selfishness has so permeated today's society that it is considered the norm, and those who are not so inclined are looked upon as the odd and peculiar ones.
ReplyDeleteJoAnn
Joann,
DeleteYes, and it’s not even a “me first” mentality anymore but “Only I count!”
—-Introibo
Many of the promoters of this modern concept called atheism are actually satanists. How effective the Devil can be when people don’t believe he exists. Such cunning! We have fallen into a state much worse than the ancient pagan societies, at least they knew that some god had to be served and honored. A modern atheist transported in time to Ancient Greece or Rome would be considered a crazy person. This is why the Novus Ordo is so horrendous, there is no concept of loving and serving and adoring God, God is there to serve us, many actually believe! This is taught indirectly! Thr Novus Ordo has replaced God with individual conscience. Yes, feelings play into it, but even JP2 promoted the idea that we are all gods. In effect, this unbelief is the equivalent of the cry of Lucifer, non servÃam, I will not serve! The antidote is Our Blessed Mother, and in the end, Her Immaculate Heart will triumph! I just saw a screenshot of Melinda Gates speaking on the Today show with an inverted cross around her neck, talking about coronavirus and vaccines. We need to get down on our knees and pray our rosary daily for the conversion of this satanic society! Our Lady will conquer! Bartolo Longo was a satanist at one point who was saved by Our Lady:
ReplyDelete“Bartolo Longo (February 10, 1841 – October 5, 1926) was an Italian lawyer and former satanic priest who returned to the Catholic faith and became a third order Dominican, dedicating his life to the Rosary and the Virgin Mary. He was eventually awarded a papal knighthood of the Order of the Holy Sepulchre by Pope Leo XIII”.
Here is a short film about his life from Mary’s Dowry in England (a wonderful apostolate although Novus Ordo, they have many free videos on the English martyrs).
https://youtu.be/3OQLRndbHIM
Note I am not mentioning the 1980 beatification by JP2.
Thank you Introibo, a great post! God bless you!
@anon2:18
DeleteThank you for the information about Longo my friend! The Rosary should indeed be our weapon and Our Lady will lead us to Victory!
God Bless,
—-Introibo
It was tough arguing with atheists today in r/dankchristianmemes in Reddit today. They just keep bringing up the pedophilia issue in the Novus Ordite sect today.
ReplyDelete(On a side note, I'm asking for your prayers guys. I just started the process of reclaiming r/sedevacantism in Reddit. God works in many marvelous ways, and for a site like Reddit with millions of people, it's not impossible that many may be converted. The sub is currently infested with feenyite and trolling junk with an inactive mod. There's also a feenyite who has a potential to claim the sub. Sorry if this is unrelated. Thank you and God bless.)
@anon7:09
DeleteThe work of conversion is most important! May God bless you in your noble efforts!
—-Introibo
I will pray for you! I know how exhausting that work can be! Do you know the August Queen of Heaven prayer? Our Lady and St. Michael will help you!
DeleteOn a completely unrelated note, Introibo: have you ever encountered or considered the prevalence of the socio-sexual hierarchy terminology (alpha, beta, delta, gamma, omega, and sigma) as defined by the blogger Vox Day?
ReplyDeleteI've seen a lot of people casually utilizing its terms in common parlance elsewhere on the Internet, and I'm wondering whether or not (regardless of whatever practical or pragmatic uses it may have for a modern Western man) Vox Day's hierarchy could be considered a viewpoint that a Catholic could honestly hold in terms of how they categorize themselves or others.
Just some food for thought.
Sincerely,
A Simple Man
Simple Man,
Delete“Vox Day”—an arrogant man named Robert Beale—uses a homophone for “Vox Dei”; the “Voice of God.” He is a racist, misogynist, and considers himself superior to others.
This is not someone a Traditionalist should emulate or borrow ideas. People should (generally speaking) not be categorized except as to their relationship to the One True Church.
That’s my opinion. I realize you are not promoting him—to your everlasting credit!
—-Introibo
It came to mind recently because on another blog, that term was being thrown with relative abandon by someone else, and I was simply pointing out that their particular choice of retorts was making them look foolish.
DeleteWhat I find interesting is that, in terms of a model of viewing other men, its practical result is a caste system for men based on certain characteristics (albeit with more social mobility).
So, in an odd way, given the recent post on Hinduism, it is kind of topical.
Sincerely,
A Simple Man
Simple Man,
DeleteNever thought about it like that before—-but you’re right!!
—-Introibo
ASM, being a veteran, I am used to a ranked hierarchy. In any organization, there is the official hierarchy and the unofficial hierarchy. I think the point of those socio sexual hiearchy videos is to point out the informal hierarchy that men naturally set up for themselves in their social and professional settings. Did Vox represent the grouping accurately, who knows? While we can find the sociological groupings interesting, we must be leery of the lefts goal of defining us in order to divide us.
DeleteTom A,
DeleteThe notion of hierarchy in and of itself is not an issue, because nature itself exhibits hierarchies as created by God. However, as far as humans go, there are true hierarchies and false hierarchies, which are determined by the underlying metrics used.
In your example, the hierarchy is simple and to the point: namely, the chain of command.
In Vox Day's example, the socio-sexual hierarchy (by my understanding of it) seeks to model and categorize men according to their power dynamics and their relationships with women. It's certainly a hierarchy that can have practical use; however, because of its naturalist and materialist underpinnings, it seems to engender a very coarse and vulgar way of looking at other people, in my personal experience.
Sincerely,
A Simple Man
For modern man, God is just "the thing that (for some people) created the universe"
ReplyDeleteHere you can find "History of Heresies" by St. Alphonsus Liguori.
https://archive.org/details/historyheresies00ligugoog/page/n12/mode/2up
Poni,
DeleteEverything by St. Alphonsus is a gem! Thank you for the information!
God Bless,
---Introibo
Introibo, what's the first definition of God that should come to mind first?
DeleteAs the Creator? Or as the Almighty/Omnipotent Being?
poni,
DeleteI have been looking for a source/book on heresies. The "History of Heresies" is just what I was looking for. Thanks so much for posting the link!
JoAnn
@anon1:54
DeleteI don’t think there’s a definition that MUST come first. It most philosophic tomes, it appears He is recognized as Creator, and must therefore be Almighty.
—-Introibo
I think we could look to the Apostles Creed, I believe in God the Father,
DeleteAlmighty, Creator of Heaven and Earth...
https://archive.org/details/originalshortand00weniuoft/page/401/mode/1up
DeleteLook at Fr. Weninger’s First Sermon from the Fifth Sunday of Easter for more insight on this interesting question!
Fr. Weninger (1805-1888), was an Austrian Jesuit priest who preached countless missions in the United States and converted many Protestants to the Catholic Faith. On his Wikipedia page, you can find more of his publications which are outstanding.
Dear Introibo and all the Readers,
ReplyDeleteFr. Rafał Trytek is asking for your prayers - his father has probably suffered a stroke and is now in hospital. His name is Roman.
Fr. Trytek is the only sedevacantist priest here in Poland, affiliated with Bishop Sanborn.
This is his Twitter account: @minorpolonus
May God reward you for your kindness!
Maria, Salus Infirmorum, ora pro nobis!
Joanna S.
Joanna,
DeleteBe assured of my prayers and I ask all my readers if do the same.
God Bless,
—-Introibo
Thank you so much, Introibo!
DeleteFr. Trytek's father is already home, he's been through a cardiovascular (I suppose) collapse. The CT scan also showed he'd probably had a minor stroke that must have gone unnoticed. However, there's still the danger that it might happen again.
Today, on the 14th of May, 2020, the apostate ururper Bergoglio has called on the world to blaspheme yet again the Holy Trinity with his 'interfaith day of prayer against the pandemic'. Let us make an act of reparation for this terrible blasphemy. This one is taken from the 1910 edition of the Raccolta (p. 102):
209. Act of Reparation.
i. 300 Days, once a day. ii. Plenary, once a month. I, II, III, IV (See Instructions.) 209 Leo XIII March 21, 1885.
MOST glorious Virgin Mary, Mother of GOD, and our mother, look with pity upon us poor sinners, who, afflicted with so many miseries surrounding us in this life, feel ourselves cut to the heart by the many horrible insults and blasphemies which we are often constrained to hear uttered against thee, O Immaculate Virgin. Oh, how these impious sayings offend the infinite Majesty of GOD, and JESUS CHRIST his only begotten SON! How they provoke his anger, and give us cause to fear the terrible effects of his vengeance! If the sacrifice of our lives could avail against such outrages and blasphemies, very willingly would we make it, for we desire, most holy Mother, to love and honour thee with all our hearts, such being the will of GOD. And just because we love thee, we will do whatever lies in our power to make thee loved and honoured by all. And do thou, Mother of pity, supreme consoler of the afflicted, accept this act of reparation offered to thee, in our name and in the name of all our families, and on behalf of those who, not knowing what they say, impiously blaspheme thee; that so, by obtaining from GOD their conversion, thy glorious compassion, thy power, and thy great mercy may become more manifest, and they too may join with us in proclaiming thee blessed amongst women, the Immaculate Virgin, the most compassionate Mother of GOD. Ave Maria thrice.
Here's the link: http://www.saintsbooks.net/books/The%20Raccolta%20-%201910.pdf
Wishing all of you a good Thursday,
Joanna S.
Joanna,
DeleteGreat link! Thank you for sharing
—-Introibo
A really unrelated thought Introibo:
ReplyDeleteWe technically don't belong to a particular rite or sui iuris church. We don't even have any humans spiritually ruling above us now.
So, do sedevacantist priests really need to be celibate?
If you say that it's obvious by the fact that the priest has chosen the Roman Rite, he still is not part of the Latin Church or any other sui iuris church. The only rules that govern him are when he celebrates a particular service in the Roman Rite.
@anon6:51
DeleteThere is a duty to uphold the law even when such law cannot be enforced. We must abstain from meat on Fridays even though there is no earthly authority to enforce it.
Technically, I would argue we do belong to a Rite. My father, prior to V2 was Latin Rite. (The father always determines the Rite of the children). Hence, I am Latin Rite and so all my children, their descendants, etc. Since we continue the remnant of that Rite, we are therefore bound by the rules of said right.
—-Introibo
I see what you mean.
DeleteBuy what about
(1) Those who convert from protestantism or the Vatican II sect to Catholicism? Do they automatically belong to the Latin Church unless they were from the Eastern "Catholic" churches? I'm referring to those whose parents were not Catholic. Even if they participate in the Roman Rite, they'll not be part of the Latin Church. Byzantine sui iuris churches can differ in discipline, though they share the same rite.
(2) The Eastern Orthodox I believe are bound to belong to the Eastern Rite when becoming Catholic until they undergo the normal process of transferring rites. So how about those who converted from Eastern "Ortbodoxy" or Eastern "Catholicism". I'd argue they'll be participating in the Roman Rite, (no choice) but are really not part of the Latin Church. Sui iuris church and rite are not the same.
(3) I just wondered why we sedevacantists don't use the formal process in admitting Novus Ordites. Is it because they were not condemned yet?
(So do you also object Bishops Rama and Slupski's ordinations and consecrations, since they were married, and as well as some of those consecrated by Bp. Thuc?)
Thanks you and God bless.
(Looks like the lockdown's bad, but thank God our country's deadline to observe the communion obligation is before All Saints! Surprisingly sometimes, Catholic obligations are less strict thank those of the Vatican II sect!)
@anon6:26
Delete1. Since the pope belongs to the Latin Rite, and we are "ordered to the See of Rome" as theologian Dorsch teaches, I would count Protestants among the Roman Rite due to the extraordinary times by default. Members "de facto" at least, even if not "de jure."
2. I basically agree with your assessment.
3. Yes. The V2 sect was never formally excommunicated for obvious reason. however, I personally see nothing wrong with formal abjuration of heresy, and I think it should be used.
Rama Coomaraswarmy was "ordained" in 1999 but, to the best of my knowledge and belief, he was never consecrated. There is a question as to whether or not Bp. Gaston-Lopez performed the Rite correctly. Bp. Gaston Lopez was assisted by the Jesuit author (and snake-in-the-grass) Malachi Martin. Rama asked Martin to "conditionally ordain him" since Martin professed (with NO TANGIBLE EVIDENCE) to have been consecrated a bishop "in pectore" by Pope Pius XII.
Martin obliged. The good doctor became little more than a buffoon at that point. I don't know the details of Bp. Slupski, but, yes, married men cannot become brothers or priests as long as their spouse is alive. This became the rule since the 1917 Code of Canon Law. I would not approach any such cleric for the Sacraments except in danger of death.
Your comment at the end rings true, but if the lockdown were to continue, impossibility excuses one before God for failure to observe the precept.
God Bless,
---Introibo
Clarification to #1 above:
DeleteShould read "Protestants WHO CONVERT" etc.
---Introibo
Thank you Introibo.
DeleteIntroibo, I agree that we should avoid clerics with alive spouses, but does this apply to
Delete(a) Bishops who ordained/consecrated men who had alive spouses?
Bp. Thuc did this, so we can't attend any Thuc-line priest's Mass.
Bp. Carmona did this, so we can't attend CMRI or Bp. Dolan's Mass.
(b) Cootie succession? Bp. Ramolla is from the lineage of Bp. Dymek who was married.
It's okay to attend Bp. Ramolla's Mass right?
(Sorry about the wrong info on Bp. Slupski. He wasn't married, but was known for ordaining married men, included is Bp. Dymek.)
Lastly, you probably hate these type of stuff, but you said one can't approach clergy who obtain their orders outside the Church. As Mario Derksen mentioned in passing in his famous open letter, he pointed out that Bp. Mendez was still a sedeplenist at Bp. Kelly's consecration. Surely it's technically from outside the Church? I doubt a man like Derksen won't properly check his sources.
@anon5:24
Delete1. Irregularity is not "passed on." To have a spouse makes you irregular. The bishop who ordains unfit men would usually be irregular in ordinary times with a pope. Abp. Thuc ordained an illiterate chicken farmer (Clemente Dominguez) in Palmar de Troya. He did so on the mistaken belief that the BVM had given approval, and he was unsure about the authority of Paul VI. Unless the bishop in question makes it policy that illiterates or married men can be ordained, bishops can make mistakes--especially during the confusion that is the Great Apostasy.
Pre-Vatican II, the great Michael Cardinal Von Faulhaber (both Anti-Modernist, and the only outspoken Anti-Nazi as Archbishop of Munich) ordained two men to the priesthood that would clash at Vatican II. One was Fr. Blaise Kurz who would be consecrated a bishop in 1939 and become the first Traditionalist Bishop and ally of Fr. DePauw. He was the ONLY Anti-Modernist Rhineland Bishop at Vatican II. The other priest Von Faulhaber ordained was Fr. Joseph RATzinger. Need I say more about him? Bishops are not infallible in their judgements as to who they ordain. If that were true pre-V2, how much more true is it today?! Thuc never said "it is fine as a rule to ordain married men." You may approach any cleric who is not himself irregular.
2. Being R&R does not put you outside the Church. The mere fact that Bp. Mendez recognized Wojtyla (yet rejected his teachings and those of Vatican II) make him wrong and confused in theology (Like SSPX) but NOT non-Catholic. A priest of the SSPV, whom I know very well, told me that Bp. Mendez (prior to 1990) made a private abjuration of heresy because of his involvement at Vatican II and he privately rejected the "papacy" of Wojtyla. I don't think such was necessary, but it puts things in a different light. Of course I have no way to verify this, and Mr. Derksen can (rightfully) only go by what is on the record. All this was done only verbally because Bp. Mendez didn't want his family members who worked for the V2 sect in Puerto Rico to be the victims of retaliation. I believe this priest is telling me the truth.
No matter how you look at it, Bp Mendez was NOT outside the Church.
---Introibo
Where are the true Bishop's and Priests? They are true Bishop's and Priests if they were ordained pre-Vatican II only. Only a few are living and we are in the last of the last days.
DeleteIf you can find one ordained pre-Vatican II count yourself very blessed.
@anon9:43
DeleteThat’s a form of Home Alone-ism. Priests and bishops of SSPV, CMRI, etc. are true Catholic clerics. They don’t cease in a time is sedevacante. Are we in the Last Days? Perhaps. We must do all we can and leave the rest up to God.
—-Introibo
anon@9:43,
DeleteOther than I don't want to be identified as you, it should be understood that true bishops and priests are not necessarily identical to true *canonical* bishops and priests, especially in a prolonged sede vacante state.
Thanks btw for your replies to my three comments above, Introibo. Greatly appreciated. May God bless you.
DeleteIt is not "Home Alone-ism" as there are pre-Vatican II Priests who say the TLM. However, most Sedes won't recognize them as most are Una Cum. Sedes would rather recognize those ordained post Vatican II in the CMRI, SSPV, etc. because they are not Una Cum. I will take a valid pre-Vatican II Una Cum Priest over the others any day.
Deleteanon @2:45
DeleteYou mean pre-Vatican II priests who are in communion with Francis AND accept the Vatican II heresies?
Anon @3:58,
DeleteQuoting from Introibo below:
"Being R&R does not put you outside the Church. The mere fact that Bp. Mendez recognized Wojtyla (yet rejected his teachings and those of Vatican II) make him wrong and confused in theology (Like SSPX) but NOT non-Catholic."
I was asking on what you were referring to. Those who recognize Francis AND the Vatican II heresies? Or the R&R?You didn't specify what pre-Vatican priest.
DeleteIntroibo,
ReplyDeleteI keep having a fear that we are all going to end up home alone, especially since this COVID-19 outbreak. What do you think?
JoAnn
Joann,
DeleteWe are home alone only until the outbreak is contained. Just like the Spanish Flu, I believe this will be completely behind us by the Fall of 2021. Then things will return to normal.
Sometimes God takes things away from us so we truly appreciate what we have. This applies to many things in my life (never thought I’d miss commuting in NYC traffic!).
I’m that much more grateful for what God has given to me—the True Faith, True Mass, and True Sacraments.
We will not be Home Alone —it will end in the near future.
—-Introibo
JoAnn,
DeletePublic masses have resumed at my CMRI chapel.
The data on COVID has reached the point where continued lock downs are becoming untenable; furthermore, the arbitrary nature of how they're being handled, along with the overt authoritarianism displayed by governors from states like MI, CA, and NY are resulting in more and more push back.
Just for reference, for a bit of perspective: during the Black Death, 60% of Europe's population perished.
I don't think COVID-19 rises anywhere near that. The real concern now comes from government overreach and municipal wannabe tyrants.
Sincerely,
A Simple Man
Introibo,
DeleteUnfortunately,I can't be as optimistic as you. I don't foresee anything being as it was before this Pandemic, especially considering the political climate. To me this Pandemic feels like I am grieving a death.
JoAnn
Simple Man,
DeleteAs a New Yorker, there is truth in what you say. Cuomo is an immoral tyrant. I don't know which is the bigger danger; catching COVID-19, or the threat of the government taking over our lives.
---Introibo
It is not so much the virus I fear as all the damage being done in the name of the virus by the politicians such as shutting churches and the infringement on our liberties.
DeleteJoAnn
Thats an easy one. Government is the bigger danger. This virus will eventually go away. But the draconian fiats issued by tyrant aspirants will not go away without a fight.
DeleteJoann, we are grieving the death of the life we knew. It will not be the same after this virus. The beast has gotten a good taste of power and control and it will not let go. Mankind has a date with the Anti Christ and there is no avoiding the “encounter.”
DeleteTom,
DeleteWhat you say is so very true.
JoAnn
This "virus" is a lie to further create a Global police state Communist government.
DeleteI can't believe people still think there was a pandemic.
-Andrew
If we had proper leadership, this virus could have resulted in a better society. We could have easily done away with retail businesses working on Sunday, we could have closed casinos, we could have shut down the porn industry. We could have encouraged more homeschooling. We could have restricted abortion even more. All of these things could have been done, and more, in the name of safety. The left certainly knows how to use a crisis to further their evil goals.
ReplyDelete
ReplyDeleteI would so like for you to be right, Intro, but I also believe the virus itself is not the problem; the problem is the "new normal" that we've been told to expect. What that will be, who knows exactly, but that term is just eerie and chilling. And the rest of this new line of doublespeak such as "social distancing" - another oxymoron meant to create cognitive dissonance whereby you try to reconcile in your mind the concept of being together in close fellowship while staying masked and separated from everyone at the same time - is revealing of some deception going on.
I hate to think the world has brought this on itself, but there has formed a widespread apathy toward God. Turning instead to pastimes, health and fitness is a big obsession. Science and doctors are objects of our veneration. It's like one of the types of atheism you described, Intro. Even atheists have to fill the void of being Godless with something. Intelligent, persuasive, powerful people fill the bill.
They say: "Be careful what you ask for, you just might get it."
God usually gives us our heart's desire, so if He allows the technocrats to become de facto rulers, it might be because the world wants them to be.
Jannie
Jannie,
DeleteExcellent analysis. You're right when you talk about atheists needing to fill the void. the First Commandment does not say, "Thou shalt not be an atheist," but rather, "Thou shalt not have strange gods before Me." Humanity is incurably God-centered. Whatever you put first in your life is, de facto, your "god." What poor substitutes people find in money, fame, sex, power, and in this case, perhaps the technocrats. God help us!
God Bless,
---Introibo
Jannie,
DeleteThe term "new normal" is certainly "errie and chilling."
JoAnn
Am I the only who is willing to believe we still have a chance to regain our former way of Life?
DeleteStop giving into apathy!
-Andrew
Below is an interesting article on the virus, vaccines and Bill Gates:
ReplyDeletehttps://www.churchmilitant.com/news/article/demand-for-arrest-of-vaccine-criminal-bill-gates
Hello.
ReplyDeleteThe question of who designed God is not only irrelevant but it also does not pertain to the nature of God- God is eternal, and as nothing never changes in eternity, he could not have been created by anyone. God is the only being that exists by himself.
Poni,
DeleteAbsolutely correct!
—-Introibo