I started this blog because I feel called by God to use the knowledge I obtained during my time with Fr. DePauw, and my many years as a Traditionalist (since 1981), to help others as we make our best Catholic way we can through this time of the Great Apostasy. I write to expose the Vatican II sect, as well as to educate and inform my readers about the Faith and warn of modern dangers. I have seen much good fruit that God has produced through my labors and I wish this to continue. I can research and put out a post quicker than most due to my large library of books, and my research/writing skills from being a lawyer and teaching. Nevertheless, it takes several hours of time, the one commodity that is becoming more and more scarce. I also make no money off my writing, it is a work of love, and it shall ever remain so.
I was seriously thinking of reducing the number of posts by skipping one Monday each month, but sometimes God steps in to show us a solution when we least expect it. For some time now, there's been a young man commenting here who goes by the moniker "A Simple Man." His comments were notable for the quality of writing and a concomitant erudition. He holds the Integral Catholic Faith and is convinced of the state of sedevacante in which we find ourselves. I posted a response to one of his comments in which I said he would make a good "fill-in" for me if I needed a break. To my surprise, he wrote back that he would be interested if I were serious. We began exchanging emails.
A young man in his 30s, he is well-educated and has a sizable library. He offered to research and write posts at his leisure (so there is no pressure or deadlines on him), and send them to me for final review and publication when I need to take a break. I will still be writing the large majority of posts each year. However, about six to ten weeks per year, Simple Man will be my "guest poster." In this way, you, my readership, continue to get 52 posts per year, and I get the break I need to continue writing 42 to 46 of those posts. This week is his first guest post.
It was nice to enjoy Thanksgiving with extra time for my family, friends, and prayer. I hope you will enjoy the "from time to time guest posts" of Simple Man and feel free to comment and let him know what you think, just as you do with me. I will also continue to respond to comments and questions during those weeks, especially if specifically addressed to me. Of late, I have been responding to all comments and queries in the late afternoon or evening, because my work became more demanding than ever. So please don't think I won't answer if you don't get a response right away; I will always write back before I go to sleep for the night.
I will always give attribution to my guest poster as A Simple Man when he writes. Otherwise, what is posted here comes from yours truly. Thank you, Simple Man! You are indeed a godsend!
God Bless you all, my dear readers---Introibo
On the Subject of Lawful Authority
By A Simple Man
At the time of this writing [November 22, 2020], the
United States of America is still consumed by the confusion and chaos related
to the 2020 Presidential Election and its ongoing aftermath. Regardless of how
it turns out, media coverage of the alleged improprieties has all but
guaranteed a significant portion of the country will not accept the final
result as legitimate. Ignoring the hypocrisy of those saying that the current
“results” – namely, that Joe Biden is the President-Elect – should not be
questioned (when the same often
spent much of the past
four years questioning the legitimacy of the 2016 election), a question
that may be on the minds of many is with regards to political authority, and
the extent of one’s obedience to it. This is all the more pertinent in light of
the increasing arbitrariness with which civil and criminal law have been
applied in these days.
In response to this line of thought, certain Christians may
reply with the lessons of Romans 13, wherein St. Paul discusses the subjection
that every soul owes to higher powers; or perhaps with the lessons of Matthew
22, wherein Our Lord refutes the Pharisees and Herodians with regards to the
question of tribute to Caesar (“[…]Render therefore to Caesar the things that
are Caesar’s; and to God, the things that are God’s.” – Matthew 22:21).
However, there was no question that Caesar (and the Roman Empire in general)
was the lawful secular authority; would the lessons of St. Paul and Our Lord
have been different if the secular authority’s identity were a matter of public
dispute? What is the extent of a Christian’s obedience to political authority
if the authority in question were in doubt, or if that authority had been
seized by seditious and unlawful means?
This blog has already covered the subject of a Christian’s
duty to the state, but it is worthwhile to delve into it with greater
detail. Our first source will be St. Robert Bellarmine, canonized in 1930 by
Pope Pius XI, and a most noteworthy Doctor of the Church; in particular, we
shall cite numerous sections from On Temporal and Spiritual Liberty (sourced
from the
edition hosted by the Online Library of Liberty, edited and translated from
the Latin by Stefania Tutino. All italics, punctuation, and spelling are as
cited). Our second source will be St. Thomas Aquinas, the Angelic Doctor; in
particular, we shall review a few citations from the Second Part of the Second
Part of the Summa Theologiae.
Chapter 6: [Political authority] is defended with a
reason drawn from the efficient cause [Author’s note: Philosophically,
the efficient cause of any object is the agent which causes change and
drives transient motion. For example, the efficient cause of a marble statue is
the sculptor who acts on the marble.]
"…as it is certain that political authority comes from
God, from Whom nothing proceeds but the good and lawful, which Augustine proves
throughout books 4 and 5 of De civitate Dei. […] But here some things
have to be noted. First, political authority considered in general…comes
immediately from God alone, since it follows necessarily from the nature of man
and therefore it comes from Him Who made the nature of man. Moreover, this
authority is of the natural law, as it does not depend upon men’s consent. In
fact, whether or not they want to, men must be ruled by somebody unless they
want human-kind to perish, which is against the inclination of nature…
"...note that this authority immediately resides in the
entire multitude as its subject because this authority is of divine law. But
divine law did not give this authority to any particular man; therefore it gave
it to all. Moreover, once we remove the positive law, there is no good reason
why among many equals one rather than another should rule. Therefore this
authority belongs to the entire multitude…
"…note that the individual kinds of government stem
from the law of nations, not from the law of nature, for the appointment of
kings, consuls, or other magistrates clearly depends on men’s consent. And, if
there is a legitimate cause, the multitude can change a monarchy into
aristocracy or a democracy, and vice versa, as we read was done in Rome.
"…note that from what we said it follows that while
this particular authority certainly derives from God, it is by means of human
deliberation and decision, like everything else that pertains to the law of
nations. In fact, the law of nations is more or less a conclusion deduced from
the law of nature through human elaboration. From this, two differences between
political and ecclesiastical authority follow…namely that political authority
resides in the multitude, while ecclesiastical authority is directly over one
man as its subject; the other from the point of view of the efficient cause,
namely that political authority considered in general comes from divine law,
and political authority considered in particular cases comes from the law of
nations, but ecclesiastical authority is in every respect of divine law and
stems immediately from God.
"On this basis I reply
to the fourth argument of the Anabaptists. [Author’s note: a Protestant sect
founded in 1521, notable for denying the validity of infant baptism and
professing a vision of society which bore many elements that would belong to
Communism in subsequent centuries. It is their radical theories on authority
which Bellarmine is disputing; in particular, their argument that political
authority introduced by God has nonetheless been usurped by tyrannical men, and
thus is not good or lawful for Christians.] First, this argument is proved
only insofar as a specific government is concerned, not regarding general
political authority itself. But here we want to establish political authority
in general, not a specific form of government. Add, second, that very often
kingdoms are just and unjust, from God and not from God. If we look at the
people who occupy and invade kingdoms, we can get the impression that kingdoms
are nothing but robber bands and unjust and therefore they do not come from
God. If, by contrast, we consider that divine providence makes use of the evil
intention of men and arranges it either to punish sins or to reward good works
or to other good ends, then those same kingdoms are just and legitimate. In
fact God sometimes by the wonderful reason of His providence takes away
kingdoms from somebody and gives them to other people; and as a consequence in
those cases, the one who falls from the kingdom falls most justly and the one
who invades the kingdom does not possess it justly, and God Himself at the
appropriate time will mete out the most just punishments for that invasion.
"But God gave Palestine
to the sons of Israel for a very different reason than that for which He later
gave it to Salmanzar or Nebuchadnezzar. On the one hand, the sons of Israel,
led by Joshua, fought against the people of Palestine with commendable
obedience and, having killed them, claimed their lands for themselves.
Salmanzar and Nebuchadnezzar, on the other hand, led the people of God into
captivity by an execrable sacrilege, and they did not want to yield to the
command of God but to their evil greed; nevertheless God used them toward that
outcome which He wanted most rightly to be attained even if they did not know
it.
"St. Augustine in his
work De gratia et libero arbitrio, chapters
20 and 21, and Hugh of St. Victor in book 1 of De
sacramentis, section 1, chapter 29, explain this issue
accurately, and testimonies from the Scriptures are not lacking, as in Isaiah
10 we read: “O Assyrian, the rod of mine anger, and the staff in their hand is
mine indignation. I will send him against an hypocritical nation, and against
the people of my wrath will I give him a charge, to take the spoil, and to take
the prey, and to tread them down like the mire of the streets. Howbeit he
meaneth not so, neither doth his heart think so; but it is in his heart to
destroy and cut off nations not a few, etc.” There it speaks of Salmanzar
and Sennacherib, who with evil intent occupied the lands of Israel;
nevertheless God without their knowledge used their work to punish the
Israelites.
"Likewise in Isaiah 45:
“Thus saith the Lord to his anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I have holden,
to subdue nations before him; and I will loose the loins of kings, to open
before him the two leaved gates; and the gates shall not be shut; I will go
before thee, and make the crooked places straight: I will break in pieces the
gates of brass, and cut in sunder the bars of iron: And I will give thee the
treasures of darkness, and hidden riches of secret places, that thou mayest
know that I, the Lord, which call thee by thy name, am the God of Israel. For
Jacob my servant’s sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy
name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.” From this
passage it is clear that Cyrus acquired for himself the monarchy out of lust
for domination, not in service of God, and yet God helped him and gave him the
monarchy that he wanted, so that he might free the people of Israel from the
Babylonian captivity.
"In Jeremiah 27: “And
now have I given all these lands into the hand of Nebuchadnezzar the king of
Babylon, my servant; and the beasts of the field have I given him also to serve
him. And all nations shall serve him, and his son, and his son’s son, until the
very time of his land come: and then many nations and great kings shall
serve themselves of him. And it shall come to pass, that the nation and kingdom
which will not serve the same Nebuchadnezzar, the king of Babylon, and that
will not put their neck under the yoke of the king of Babylon, that nation will
I punish, saith the Lord, with the sword, and with the famine, and with the
pestilence, until I have consumed them by his hand.” And yet who doubts
that Nebuchadnezzar submitted to himself so many kingdoms with evil intent?
"[…]Likewise the Romans
wanted to enlarge their empire not for God, but for lust of glory, as blessed
Augustine shows extensively in De civitate Dei, book
5, chapter 12. Nevertheless God allowed them to enlarge their empire, both to
reward them for their good morals, as St. Augustine teaches in book 5, chapter
15, of De civitate Dei, and to prepare
the path for preaching the Gospel through the union of all peoples under one
government, as blessed Leo says in his first sermon on Peter and Paul.
"Add also that even if
at the beginning those who established kingdoms were for the most part
invaders, in the course of time they or their successors become legitimate
princes, since the peoples little by little give their consent. In this way the
kingdom of the Franks, by everybody’s consent, is now legitimate, even though
at the beginning the Franks occupied Gaul unjustly. And the same can be said of
the Hispanic kingdom, which began with the invasion of the Goths, and of the
English kingdom, which began with the unjust occupation of the Anglo-Saxons,
and of the Roman Empire itself, which was established by Julius Caesar,
oppressor of his country, but which nevertheless later began to be legitimate
to the point that the Lord said in Matthew 22: “Render therefore unto Caesar,
etc.” "
To summarize, St. Robert Bellarmine fully
acknowledges the historical existence of unjust rulers; however, rather than
refusing the prerogatives of political authority as is their due from the
natural and divine law, he brings to mind the supernatural perspective with which
we must view the affairs of this world: in all matters where lawful
obedience to political authority is due, regardless of the just or unjust
means by which that authority gained its power, we are still called to follow
the example of Christ and the saints (even to the point of martyrdom, should
that political authority give unlawful or sinful commands that we must
thereafter refuse). The rest of On Temporal and Spiritual Liberty is well worth reading in its entirety.
What of tyrannical
governments? Some may retort that a
political authority which obtains governmental power contrary to the ordinary
means particular to that society (especially if the methods were by force of
fraud or chicanery) is per se tyrannical, at which point it becomes
lawful to resist. St. Thomas Aquinas, with regards to the subject of sedition,
seems to support this viewpoint: "A tyrannical government is not just,
because it is directed, not to the common good, but to the private good of the
ruler, as the Philosopher states (Polit. iii, 5; Ethic. viii, 10). Consequently
there is no sedition in disturbing a government of this kind, unless indeed the
tyrant's rule be disturbed so inordinately, that his subjects suffer greater
harm from the consequent disturbance than from the tyrant's government. Indeed
it is the tyrant rather that is guilty of sedition, since he encourages discord
and sedition among his subjects, that he may lord over them more securely; for
this is tyranny, being conducive to the private good of the ruler, and to the injury
of the multitude. " - ST II-II, q. 42, a. 2, ad 3.
This view seems to have
additional support from St. Thomas’s overview of the subject of Obedience (bold
is emphasis mine): "Man is bound to obey secular princes in so far as this
is required by order of justice. Wherefore if the prince's authority is not
just but usurped, or if he commands what is unjust, his subjects are not
bound to obey him, except perhaps accidentally, in order to avoid scandal or
danger." – ST II-II, q. 104, a. 6, ad 3.
However, the threshold of
tyranny is an extremely high bar to clear. Consider the rulers of the
Roman Empire: starting with Caligula in 41 A.D., over twenty claimants
to the imperial seat (be they emperor or co-emperor) were murdered over the
next few centuries prior to Christianity’s legalization by Constantine I. Quite
a few more of Constantine’s successors would also be murdered. However, despite
the constant usurpation of power by unjust force, Christian obedience to the
civil authority remained (even in the face of persecution, torture, and death).
Has the situation facing traditional Catholics within modern America reached
that point of political turmoil, wherein extraordinary disturbance of the
government would not be seditious as a result? I would argue that it clearly
has not.
Likewise, when it comes to
determining whether the current electoral results in America are the result of
usurpation (in the sense that a re-election victory for Trump was “stolen” by
allies and supporters of Joe Biden, as is alleged by many within conservative
circles, and there is currently a case to be made for this allegation),
that is a matter currently undergoing legal proceedings. (I do acknowledge that
there are legitimate concerns regarding improprieties by lesser authorities
with respect to certain states and municipalities as of the time of writing;
however, the subject of this post is with regards to the general morality of obedience
to political authority, in light of the teaching of two of the Church’s
greatest approved theologians.) As St. Thomas argues in ST II-II, q. 60, a. 3,
forming a judgment on nothing more than suspicion (which, in context, is
defined as thinking evil of another on nothing more than a slight indication)
is a sin (though he does elaborate on degrees of suspicion and their
corresponding levels of sinfulness).
As such, I would argue that
the following observations from St. Thomas still hold for our current
circumstances: "Sedition is a special sin, having something in common with
war and strife, and differing somewhat from them. It has something in common
with them, in so far as it implies a certain antagonism, and it differs from
them in two points. First, because war and strife denote actual aggression on
either side, whereas sedition may be said to denote either actual aggression,
or the preparation for such aggression. Hence a gloss on 2 Corinthians 12:20
says that "seditions are tumults tending to fight," when, to
wit, a number of people make preparations with the intention of fighting.
Secondly, they differ in that war is, properly speaking, carried on against
external foes, being as it were between one people and another, whereas strife
is between one individual and another, or between few people on one side and
few on the other side, while sedition, in its proper sense, is between mutually
dissentient parts of one people, as when one part of the state rises in tumult
against another part. Wherefore, since sedition is opposed to a special kind of
good, namely the unity and peace of a people, it is a special kind of sin.
" – ST II-II, q. 42, a. 1
"As stated above (II-II,
q. 42, a. 1, ad 2), sedition is contrary to the unity of the multitude, viz.
the people of a city or kingdom. Now Augustine says (De Civ. Dei ii, 21) that
"wise men understand the word people to designate not any crowd of
persons, but the assembly of those who are united together in fellowship
recognized by law and for the common good." Wherefore it is evident
that the unity to which sedition is opposed is the unity of law and common
good: whence it follows manifestly that sedition is opposed to justice and the
common good. Therefore by reason of its genus it is a mortal sin, and its gravity
will be all the greater according as the common good which it assails surpasses
the private good which is assailed by strife. Accordingly the sin of sedition
is first and chiefly in its authors, who sin most grievously; and secondly it
is in those who are led by them to disturb the common good. Those, however, who
defend the common good, and withstand the seditious party, are not themselves
seditious, even as neither is a man to be called quarrelsome because he defends
himself, as stated above (II-II, q. 41, a. 1). " – ST II-II, q. 42, a. 2
To summarize, St. Thomas Aquinas acknowledges that
sedition is a grievous sin, and that there are scenarios wherein force may be
lawfully used to defend the common good against such nefarious actors who would
instigate it. However, as seen from history, the Catholic view of submission to
political authority runs far beyond our natural inclinations, for the Church’s
primary concern is with the salvation of our souls. As seen throughout the Old
Testament, unjust and power-hungry rulers were often used as instruments of
God’s righteous Justice against the disobedient Israelites. It would not be
beyond the pale for similar governments to be used against the faithful in
these days, as a means to increase our faith in God, reduce our trust in
manmade solutions, and to restore our reliance on Divine Providence.
In conclusion, it can be very easy to get swept up in
the furor regarding the political fate of our country, and to despair at the
seeming sight of fraud being used to subvert electoral outcomes. However, we
are still called to obedience in all things which are lawfully due to the state
(even if we may have honest and well-founded concerns with the means by which
they seized power), while still championing the rights of God and rendering to
Him all that is His due. The temporal struggles we endure are but a blink in
the eyes of eternity; take comfort and work out your salvation with righteous
fear, knowing that everyone will one day get their due as well. After
all, “…he that taketh authority to himself unjustly shall be hated.” –
Ecclesiasticus 20:8
There will be more to come on
this subject (perhaps on civil disobedience, and the extent to which such
actions are permissible?), for the Church of Christ has answers in the face of
every problem facing mankind throughout the ages. The problems of political
authority, as they have manifested throughout the centuries, are no different.
Welcome to the forefront Simple Man! I have enjoyed your comments. There are some who write in com-boxes who have something good to add but it eventually goes to their head. I haven’t noticed this about you. Your comments always add to the conversation. If Introibo says your ok, I’m willing to listen. I have found no reason to think otherwise. Welcome again and I look forward to your posts.
ReplyDeleteINTROIBO
Good selection and I hope this gives you the respite you need to enjoy your family and keep up God’s work. I will look forward to your posts as always.
James
James,
DeleteThank you for the kind words and I'm glad you like Simple Man's post! It is nice to "catch my breath" once in a while.
God Bless,
---Introibo
Take care of you, Introïbo. We want you to stay healthy for a long time to deliver a lot of good papers every week. I think the Lord has sent you a good co-worker.
ReplyDeleteSimon,
DeleteThank you my friend! I agree Simple Man is a good co-worker!
God Bless,
---Introibo
Great article.
ReplyDeleteSo usurped authority becomes lawful authority through consent of the ruled, is that correct?
So, say, if I was in revolutionary France, when would I start obeying the government?
Same is true with the papacy. Usurped authority becomes lawful authority through consent of the ruled. Think "universal acceptance" except it goes even further in that the consent is an infallible indication of the legitimacy of the ruler.
DeleteTo anon@5:23 AM,
DeleteThat's a very good question, particularly in light of how relatively quickly the forms of government changed (from the monarchy to the Girondins to Robespierre's Committee of Public Safety to the Directory to Napoleon, all within a single decade. That level of political turmoil was unprecedented).
Speaking from general principles (and lacking Church correspondence regarding how ecclesial authorities thought about the situation at hand), I can *tentatively* say the following:
1) Given how quickly the forms of government changed and how often they turned against either the prior holders of power and their supporters, determining when the government obtained the consent of the ruled is difficult. (This is also notwithstanding the extent to which legitimate public dismay with King Louis XVI was exaggerated by his political opponents, who I can justly say were the first to commit sedition. After all, I doubt the vast majority of the French public who wanted financial and governmental reforms expected - much less desired - the Revolutionaries to dispense with the monarchy entirely.)
2) For the average Catholic at the time, I imagine they would have been spending much of their time hiding priests who refused the intrusion of the revolutionaries on ecclesial matters, or trying to keep from catching the attention of the increasingly arbitrary revolutionaries. For at least one part of France, the issue that drove a lot of French Catholics to arms was the closure of churches and the denial of public worship by the Revolutionaries, which would be an instance of the civil authorities intruding upon the worship due to God (see here for more details: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_the_Vendée ; cursory overview indicates this article is relatively well-cited, as Wikipedia's usefulness on a subject - as a general rule of thumb - inversely correlates to both how recent and how currently politically charged the topic is).
3) When laws and rulers change with such frequency that knowing who is currently "in charge" is difficult, I think there is a great degree of leniency involved with regards to decisions made by the laity (particularly if done in the spirit of prudence).
In short, I would argue that the first person to fully enjoy the "consent of the ruled" after the overthrow of the monarchy, in the sense that Bellarmine uses it, would be the Consulate, particularly after a public referendum whereby Napoleon obtained an overwhelming majority of control over the government in 1800. Regardless of his authoritarian ambitions, the fact that Napoleon restored a semblance of public order and civil stability after several years of revolutionary turmoil is a matter of historical record, and was a large part of why he was genuinely popular with the average Frenchman.
Sincerely,
A Simple Man
To anon@6:43 AM,
DeleteBellarmine differentiates between civil and ecclesial authority for good reason (as he does in one of the sections I cited).
It is possible for Christians to consent to a non-Christian ruler in the political order. However, by virtue of divine law - as manifested in magisterial teaching and the canons of the Church - it is impossible for a non-Catholic to hold ecclesial authority.
As such it is impossible per se for the authority of "Pope Francis" (for example) to become legitimate by the mere consent of the laity and subordinate clergy, since all the consent in the universe won't change the fact that as a public and manifest heretic, he has severed himself from the body of the Church ipso facto.
Sincerely,
A Simple Man
A Simple Man,
DeleteThank you for the answer, really enlightening (no pun intended). Though I do sort of doubt the results released by the French Consulate on the public referendum where 99.9% approved Napoleon having all authority (considering Napoleon used propaganda many times), I don't doubt that overwhelming majority anyway did approve, that Pope Pius VII had no problem on acknowledging the government as legitimate in the 1801 concordat. So as you said, fits Bellarmine's stated condition. Thank you for your answer once again.
God bless your work as well. Looking forward to your posts as well.
anon@6:43 am,
Yes.
Hello all,
ReplyDeleteFirst of all, thank you to Introibo for the opportunity to write in your stead from time to time.
Secondly, to the readers in general, please point out any issues or concerns you may have, and I will do my utmost to answer them within my capacity.
Sincerely,
A Simple Man
On an entirely unrelated note, I've learned a new word today!
Delete"Eleemosynary" (e-li-'mä-sə-ner-ē) - of, relating to, or supported by charity, alms, or almsgiving
Etymology: From Medieval Latin eleemosynarius (“alms dispenser”), from Late Latin eleemosyna (“alms”), from Ancient Greek ἐλεημοσύνη (eleēmosúnē, “alms”), from ἐλεέω (eleéō, “I have mercy”), from ἔλεος (éleos, “pity”).
Cordially yours,
A Simple Man
Simple Man,
DeleteThank you for a great first post and answering the readers so well!
---Introibo
Death to globalism and the New World Order.
ReplyDeleteLee
Lee,
DeleteAbsolutely!
God Bless,
---Introibo
Why is globalism wrong, or is this referring to another meaning of the word? Thanks. (I'm not any of the anons below, just for clarity)
DeleteTo anon@3:55 AM,
DeleteGenerally speaking, "globalism" refers to systems with a scope that cross borders and nationalities and continents, and are intended to function on a planetary scale.
As a mindset, a "globalist" is usually someone with a cosmopolitan view of the world (i.e. "I'm a global citizen."), who treats national, religious, ethnic, and cultural differences as mere obstacles to the economic and political unification of the world.
From a Catholic perspective, a globalist mindset is concomitant with the philosophy of Freemasonry and other such groups, and as such is viewed with deserved suspicion. This is especially noteworthy in light of the high probability (some would argue that it's a certainty) that the elimination of nation-states in favor of a global government (or at least their subservience to same) will be a precursor for the reign of the Antichrist.
This (among other reasons) is why many Traditionalists view organizations like the United Nations with derision and disdain.
Sincerely,
A Simple Man
Thank you very much ASM.
DeleteWelcome ASM. I take it from your statement that if the primary purpose of the Church is the “salvation if souls,” then Catholics must resist any law or command that fosters the damnation of souls.
ReplyDeleteTom A,
DeleteTo a degree, insofar as the law or commandments of a secular power is intrinsically contrary to the law or commandments of God.
To use an analogy, a government which enacts a law mandating idolatry (with penalties for disobedience) would be commanding an intrinsically sinful act, and as such you must disobey it in order to be obedient to the superior authority (i.e. God). On the other hand, if a government enacts a law mandating speed limits when driving on a public highway (with penalties for disobedience), then we are bound within that particular sphere to obey the government, since speed limits do not infringe upon the law of God per se. (These are two admittedly extreme examples on proverbially opposite ends of the spectrum, but they do illustrate the point, I think.)
"Man is subject to God simply as regards all things, both internal and external, wherefore he is bound to obey Him in all things. On the other hand, inferiors are not subject to their superiors in all things, but only in certain things and in a particular way, in respect of which the superior stands between God and his subjects, whereas in respect of other matters the subject is immediately under God, by Whom he is taught either by the natural or by the written law." - ST II-II, q. 104, a. 5, ad. 2
"As stated above (Article 5), subjection whereby one man is bound to another regards the body; not the soul, which retains its liberty. Now, in this state of life we are freed by the grace of Christ from defects of the soul, but not from defects of the body, as the Apostle declares by saying of himself (Romans 7:23) that in his mind he served the law of God, but in his flesh the law of sin. Wherefore those that are made children of God by grace are free from the spiritual bondage of sin, but not from the bodily bondage, whereby they are held bound to earthly masters, as a gloss observes on 1 Timothy 6:1, "Whosoever are servants under the yoke," etc." - ST II-II, q. 104, a. 6, ad. 1
Sincerely,
A Simple Man
To me, the takeaway from past history, specifically the history of the early Christians in the Roman Empire, is that the Christian citizen of a land ruled by despots owes the regime it's natural due, but may not obey laws that demand so much as a grain of incense to be offered in opposition to the Law of the One True God. We must resist any laws that call for false worship, direct killing of other humans, lying or stealing or any other orders directed against the 10 Commandments.
ReplyDeleteI would welcome any correction or elaboration on this thought.
Welcome to the boss' chair, ASM ;)
You've put up a very good post, and this is a necessary discussion for us to have in these times
Thanks,
Jannie
Jannie,
DeleteYou are correct.
Only in one case is a Catholic exempt from obedience to the State: when the law is clearly unjust and contrary to the Will of God. It then does not bind in conscience. As Pope Leo XIII beautifully summarized: "The one only reason which men have for not obeying is when anything is demanded of them which is openly repugnant to the natural or the divine law, for it is equally unlawful to command to do anything in which the law of nature or the will of God is violated. If, therefore, it should happen to any one to be compelled to prefer one or the other, viz., to disregard either the commands of God or those of rulers, he must obey Jesus Christ, who commands us to "give to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's," and must reply courageously after the example of the Apostles: "We ought to obey God rather than men." And yet there is no reason why those who so behave themselves should be accused of refusing obedience; for, if the will of rulers is opposed to the will and the laws of God, they themselves exceed the bounds of their own power and pervert justice; nor can their authority then be valid, which, when there is no justice, is null." (See Diuturnum, para. #15)
Glad you like the guest post of Simple Man!
God Bless,
---Introibo
A timely column, however, I have several questions. First, people in the military swear an oath to defend the US against enemies foreign and domestic, does this change anything? Also, by my definition, a political party that uses deception and fraud to steal an election and that wants to destroy typical American beliefs, culture, and religion is a domestic enemy.
ReplyDeleteSecond, the US has built into the Constitution the virtual right of people to resist tyranny through the 1st and 2nd amendments, would that change anything for a Catholic? I understand the rights of God come first, but if somebody did lawfully resist following the constitution, would that violate any laws of God?
Also, please anyone and everyone, spare me any comments about the 2nd Amendment being for hunting or some other nonsense. I have heard and read it all, there is nothing new under the sun.
Thanks
To anon@9:12 AM (part 1 of 3),
DeleteWith regards to the oath to defend the United States against enemies foreign and domestic, this particular doesn't intrinsically infringe upon the rights of God, I think. That being said, we have numerous examples of saints from the early history of the Church (during the times of Roman persecution) who were what we would now call "conscientious objectors" (Saint Menas, Saint Gereon of Cologne, the Forty Martyrs of Sebaste, etc). In the particular scenario of these saints, wherein their martyrdom occurred because they refused to sacrifice to pagan gods for victory in battle, or because they refused to recant their faith in Christ, their disobedience of their military oaths was due to their obedience to the superior authority of God.
Another example is St. Maurice and his Companions, who disobeyed orders from the Emperor Maximian to harass Christians in what was then known as Agaunum (now Saunt-Maurice, Switzerland). After two decimations (a decimation being when every tenth soldier was killed), Maximian ordered that Maurice and the rest of his legion were to be executed. Thus did they attain the crown of martyrdom.
Although performing one's lawful duties in terms of keeping the peace and defending the country are perfectly justifiable (elsewise Joan of Arc might not have been beatified by Pope Pius X in 1909, with Pope Benedict XV canonizing her in 1920), there are considerations of what one's orders entail, whether they are in accordance with Just War theory (as expressed by approved theologians and the Magisterium), as well as whether the orders provided have anything to do with the intrinsic defense of the country (for example, an order to harass or assault *non-violent* protesters, who are peaceably petitioning the government for a redress of grievances; that would be an example of an order which, I would argue, could be conscientiously objected to. I would have to research more material on the extent of conscientious objection's lawfulness to provide a more detailed answer, however).
Meanwhile, as a soldier, with regards to determining whether a political party is legitimately classified as a domestic enemy, the decision to wage war does not lie within your sphere of authority. To quote the Catholic Encyclopedia's entry on war (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15546c.htm): (To be continued...)
To anon@9:12 AM (part 2 of 3),
Delete"The right of war lies solely with the sovereign authority of the State. As it flows from the efficacious character of other rights in peril, the coercive right must belong to the possessor, or to the natural guardian, of those rights. The rights in question may be directly corporate rights of the State, or which, of course, the State is itself the possessor, and of which there is no natural guardian but the sovereign authority of the State; or directly the rights of subordinate parts of the State or even of its individual citizens, and of these the sovereign authority is the natural guardian against foreign aggression. The sovereign authority is the guardian, because there is no higher power on earth to which appeal may be made; and, moreover, in the case of the individual citizen, the protection of his rights against foreign aggression will ordinarily become indirectly a matter of the good of the Commonwealth. It is clear that the right of war cannot become a prerogative of any subordinate power in the state, or of a section, a city, or an individual, for the several reasons: that none such can have the right to imperil the good of all the state (as happens in war) except the juridical guardian of the common good of all: that subordinate parts of the state, as well as the individual citizen, having the supreme authority of the state to which to make appeal, are not in the case of necessity required for the exercise of coercion; finally, that any such right in hands other than those of the sovereign power would upset the pace and order of the whole state. How sovereign authority in matter of war reverts back to the people as a whole in certain circumstances belongs for explanation to the question of revolution. With the supreme power lies also the judicial authority to determine when war is necessary, and what is the necessary and proportionate measure of damage it may therein inflict: there is no other natural tribunal to which recourse may be had, and without this judicial faculty the right of war would be vain."
Likewise from St. Thomas Aquinas in ST II-II, q. 40, a.1:
xxxx
In order for a war to be just, three things are necessary. First, the authority of the sovereign by whose command the war is to be waged. For it is not the business of a private individual to declare war, because he can seek for redress of his rights from the tribunal of his superior. Moreover it is not the business of a private individual to summon together the people, which has to be done in wartime. And as the care of the common weal is committed to those who are in authority, it is their business to watch over the common weal of the city, kingdom or province subject to them. And just as it is lawful for them to have recourse to the sword in defending that common weal against internal disturbances, when they punish evil-doers, according to the words of the Apostle (Romans 13:4): "He beareth not the sword in vain: for he is God's minister, an avenger to execute wrath upon him that doth evil"; so too, it is their business to have recourse to the sword of war in defending the common weal against external enemies. Hence it is said to those who are in authority (Psalm 81:4): "Rescue the poor: and deliver the needy out of the hand of the sinner"; and for this reason Augustine says (Contra Faust. xxii, 75): "The natural order conducive to peace among mortals demands that the power to declare and counsel war should be in the hands of those who hold the supreme authority."
Secondly, a just cause is required, namely that those who are attacked, should be attacked because they deserve it on account of some fault. Wherefore Augustine says (QQ. in Hept., qu. x, super Jos.): "A just war is wont to be described as one that avenges wrongs, when a nation or state has to be punished, for refusing to make amends for the wrongs inflicted by its subjects, or to restore what it has seized unjustly."
(To be continued...)
To anon@9:12 AM (part 3 of 3),
ReplyDelete[Continuing from St. Thomas ST II-II, q. 40, a.1] "Thirdly, it is necessary that the belligerents should have a rightful intention, so that they intend the advancement of good, or the avoidance of evil. Hence Augustine says (De Verb. Dom. [The words quoted are to be found not in St. Augustine's works, but Can. Apud. Caus. xxiii, qu. 1): "True religion looks upon as peaceful those wars that are waged not for motives of aggrandizement, or cruelty, but with the object of securing peace, of punishing evil-doers, and of uplifting the good." For it may happen that the war is declared by the legitimate authority, and for a just cause, and yet be rendered unlawful through a wicked intention. Hence Augustine says (Contra Faust. xxii, 74): "The passion for inflicting harm, the cruel thirst for vengeance, an unpacific and relentless spirit, the fever of revolt, the lust of power, and such like things, all these are rightly condemned in war."
xxxx
In other words, if you believe a political party has used deception and fraud to steal an election, fighting them as a domestic enemy could not be done of your own volition, as the authority to declare war against them must come from a lawful superior who has adjudicated the same. Without such sovereign approval to wage war against a domestic enemy, you (in your capacity as an individual, and not in your capacity as a soldier) would have to seek alternative legal means to contest their fraudulent or illegal activity (even if it be in the court of public opinion, whereby you convince a sufficient multitude of the positive evidence you bear that elevates your claims of fraud beyond the level of mere suspicion, which provides a means for political change conducive to the common welfare).
With regards to the 1st Amendment (I don't consider the 2nd Amendment an issue in and of itself, since it simply recognizes that an individual has a natural right to defend his own life through force of arms): note that as far as the 1st Amendment is concerned, it enshrines as foundational law (implicitly, at the very least) that which has been solemnly condemned by prior Popes, namely religious liberty. Introibo has written numerous prior articles on this blog regarding the error of religious liberty as it pertains to Vatican II and prior magisterial teaching:
https://introiboadaltaredei2.blogspot.com/2019/03/separation-of-sanity-and-state.html
https://introiboadaltaredei2.blogspot.com/2014/07/playing-devils-advocate-with-vatican-ii.html
https://introiboadaltaredei2.blogspot.com/2010/06/religious-liberty-religious-tolerance.html
For a post more geared towards the American Constitution specifically, he's also written a post on the John Birch Society: https://introiboadaltaredei2.blogspot.com/2015/05/attempting-naturalistic-solution-to.html
I think your particular choice of words is key: "lawfully resist". Traditionalists in America are currently in a position where we must tolerate the nature of our Constitution insofar as it inculcates an erroneous opinion of the nature of Church and State (since we have no ability to change what men over two centuries prior to our existence did); as such, the lawful means of enacting a confessional state would, I argue, have to come about culturally first (namely, persuading the public at large that a confessional Catholic state is what we must attain to), followed by enacting this change through the legal means prescribed (namely a Constitutional amendment).
However, given the patterns of history, my prediction is that this country will sooner fall into various seditions and revolutions long before such a cultural change comes about (though I would be most happy to be proven wrong on this point!), at which point reorganizing society for the sake of the common good (as the Church teaches) from the remnants would have to follow.
Hope this clarifies some things.
Sincerely,
A Simple Man
Absolutely superb series of comments, in addition to a wonderful blog post in general!
DeleteI have a different question for you regarding St. Bellarmine, but I'll post it in a separate thread to avoid confusion.
Does anyone thinks using google is coperation in sin?
ReplyDelete@anon2:29
DeleteNo. There is, at the least, no FORMAL cooperation--which may never be given.
God Bless,
---Introibo
I remember a while back having read St. Robert Bellarmine's work on this topic being used by a Novus Ordo Americanist to peddle the idea that authority of government comes from the people, as the Founding Fathers taught and believed.
ReplyDeleteThis of course, had me taken aback, since St. Paul's teachings on government and authority always seemed clearly to point to the authority's origins from God, not man. Coupling this with Pope Leo XIII's teachings in Diuturnum, the false notion of authority to govern being derived from the consent of man seems to have been quite clearly condemned, particularly outlined in paragraphs 5 and 8 of my citation:
5. Indeed, very many men of more recent times, walking in the footsteps of those who in a former age assumed to themselves the name of philosophers,[2] say that all power comes from the people; so that those who exercise it in the State do so not as their own, but as delegated to them by the people, and that, by this rule, it can be revoked by the will of the very people by whom it was delegated. But from these, Catholics dissent, who affirm that the right to rule is from God, as from a natural and necessary principle.
6. It is of importance, however, to remark in this place that those who may be placed over the State may in certain cases be chosen by the will and decision of the multitude, without opposition to or impugning of the Catholic doctrine. And by this choice, in truth, the ruler is designated, but the rights of ruling are not thereby conferred. Nor is the authority delegated to him, but the person by whom it is to be exercised is determined upon.
7. There is no question here respecting forms of government, for there is no reason why the Church should not approve of the chief power being held by one man or by more, provided only it be just, and that it tend to the common advantage. Wherefore, so long as justice be respected, the people are not hindered from choosing for themselves that form of government which suits best either their own disposition, or the institutions and customs of their ancestors.[3]
8. But, as regards political power, the Church rightly teaches that it comes from God, for it finds this clearly testified in the sacred Scriptures and in the monuments of antiquity; besides, no other doctrine can be conceived which is more agreeable to reason, or more in accord with the safety of both princes and peoples.
https://www.papalencyclicals.net/leo13/l13civ.htm
Hence, my question is, how can Pope Leo XIII's teaching be squared with St. Robert Bellarmine's? From reading it here, it does seem that the Saintly Doctor makes a distinction between ecclesiastical and civil power, and instead is speaking of the possibility for man to determine who wields the power that comes from God, but seeing how St. Bellarmine's work was potentially misconstrued by an americanist to support the erroneous opinion of the Founding Fathers on this matter, I was curious to hear your thoughts on this matter.
God bless, and a blessed Advent!
neyoriquans,
DeleteI think the distinction is made by St. Robert Bellarmine in these sections which I cited:
"…as it is certain that political authority comes from God, from Whom nothing proceeds but the good and lawful, which Augustine proves throughout books 4 and 5 of De civitate Dei. […] But here some things have to be noted. First, political authority considered in general…comes immediately from God alone, since it follows necessarily from the nature of man and therefore it comes from Him Who made the nature of man. Moreover, this authority is of the natural law, as it does not depend upon men’s consent. In fact, whether or not they want to, men must be ruled by somebody unless they want human-kind to perish, which is against the inclination of nature…
"...note that this authority immediately resides in the entire multitude as its subject because this authority is of divine law. But divine law did not give this authority to any particular man; therefore it gave it to all. Moreover, once we remove the positive law, there is no good reason why among many equals one rather than another should rule. Therefore this authority belongs to the entire multitude…
"…note that the individual kinds of government stem from the law of nations, not from the law of nature, for the appointment of kings, consuls, or other magistrates clearly depends on men’s consent. And, if there is a legitimate cause, the multitude can change a monarchy into aristocracy or a democracy, and vice versa, as we read was done in Rome.
"…note that from what we said it follows that while this particular authority certainly derives from God, it is by means of human deliberation and decision, like everything else that pertains to the law of nations. In fact, the law of nations is more or less a conclusion deduced from the law of nature through human elaboration."
In other words, Bellarmine is making these points:
- All political power owes its authority to the divine law of God.
- Moreover, its manifestation is through human nature (i.e. the natural law), which necessarily relies upon the existence of authority to flourish and form society regardless of their consent to it.
- However, the particular form of this authority's manifestation comes about through human activity (hence the various forms of human government), and not as if political power is immediately granted to a particular *form* of government (i.e. God did not look upon King St. Louis IX and say 'all power is vested in you' the moment he put upon the crown; the political system which vested him with secular power was the consequence of historical events and the society he lived in, but the *essence* of the authority he wielded was dependent upon God, even if its *accidents* were the result of human activity).
Does that make sense? I'm open to correction if I'm misreading St. Robert Bellarmine. In other places, he makes clear what he thinks the ideal form of government is (namely, a simple monarchy, as he illustrates in De Romano Pontifice), yet he does not thereby disparage other forms of government in principle.
If nothing else, Bellarmine's argument that political authority in general is dependent upon the natural law (and therefore is active regardless of man's consent to it) should be proof enough that the Americanist in question is misinterpreting Bellarmine when he asserts that the saint taught that the authority of government is derived from the people, and not ultimately from God.
Sincerely,
A Simple Man
Thank you for your clarification, after having read it a second time through the post and now a third time here I think I finally see the distinctions and points being made (though I will admit it took me a bit haha! For whatever reason I struggle with St. Bellarmines language, though I don't have this same issue with other older English texts and translations. Oh well!)
DeleteIt's good to see no real contradiction between St. Bellarmine and the Pope, as even Pope Leo XIII seems to imply the same point St. Bellarmine was driving at with no particular form of government or ruler being specifically willed by God.
Great work, and I very much look forward to more from both you and Introibo of course!
How does one resist a government, if it is mandated to receive a vaccine that has used aborted fetal cells in its manufacture? Or, what should be done if there is no vaccine available that has been made without those cells?
ReplyDeleteHow does one resist if the US govt. removes the Hyde amendment and uses our money to pay for abortions up to the moment of birth?
Thank you.
You don't resist. You do exactly what you are told with no question and you do it out of "love of thy neighbor" because it's good to wear a mask, so much so that you do it when you sleep, slip it down when you eat and cancel your Christmas plans because it's just too dangerous. When the vaccine is ready you get injected as soon as you can and make it easier for the government to strip you of your individual rights because public safety is more important than your rights.
DeleteWhile you are at it, turn in your guns if you live in America because guns are only allowed to be possessed by the government and besides if you were to defend yourself with a gun, you would be the one who goes to prison because Antifa and Black live matter and you don't.
And since many traditional Catholics hate the US constitution because it is derived from Masons, just say the H*ll with Pope Pius XII on what he said about voting and taking part in civil life because he is so yesterday and obey the government instead because you must have reverent fear of them.
I hope all this helps,
Lee
To anon@4:08 AM,
DeleteUnfortunately, most "Catholic" literature (particularly from the Pontifical Academy for Life) regarding the morality of vaccines derived from fetal tissue appears to have been written after Vatican II, so their reliability is questionable. (As far as I'm aware, the first use of cells from aborted children originated in the 1930s, and I don't know when that information became public knowledge to the degree that Rome would have been made aware.)
One thing to consider in terms of pontifical support for vaccination in prior centuries (for example: https://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2015/02/an-anti-vaxx-pope) was that they utilized a method of vaccination known as inoculation, which deliberately introduced viral particles into the human body so that an immune response could be triggered before the actual virus could infect you. (In the case of smallpox, the samples were taken from pustules of people already suffering from smallpox.) The difference now is that - because of the nature by which viruses work and propagate - various embryos (both human and animal) are used to culture the virus for vaccine samples. This has been perceived as an advancement in medical technology, although the utilization of cells from an aborted child has grave moral implications. As such, the method by which vaccines are made has also changed, so it would be erroneous to apply prior approval of vaccines to those utilized in modern times.
I would have to do more research for an answer that is more comprehensive (the Principle of Double Effect, its past applications, magisterial views of situations which were similar to the current vaccine issue, and so on), but my initial gut response as follows (subject to revision!):
1) The government's authority to lawfully mandate a vaccine is questionable as is, seeing as how it's never mandated even during flu season. Given the current hysteria regarding COVID in particular (especially in light of inconsistent responses to it by governmental authorities worldwide), I think any particular vaccine (not just one derived from fetal tissue) can have its efficacy doubted. In essence, you acknowledge the risk to yourself that you *may* catch the virus, but you also may *not*, since a virus is not a moral agent.
2) With regards to what to do if a morally-produced vaccine is not available (yet is not also mandated), it would depend both on the nature of a given virus in terms of its lethality, as well as what particular risk you may have with regards to not only yourself, but to others around you. Speaking for myself personally, I would not take it, and accept the consequences that come (since, again, beyond standard practices of good hygiene, I cannot control whether or not I contract a respiratory virus like COVID, as it is not particular to sinful behaviors like HIV is.)
3) Church teaching regarding the lawfulness and obligation of paying taxes due to the state has been relatively consistent AFAIK, in that any evils which the government may cooperate in using tax money (as was the case of taxes paid during the Roman Empire in order to finance the Legions that would then harass or persecute Christians) are an example of remote, mediate, material cooperation with the evil act on the taxpayer's part, so I don't believe the guilt for the evil act is intrinsically imputed to the taxpayer who intends otherwise. (I'm open to correction by Introibo if he has more detailed information.)
To Lee,
Personally, a sardonic response is not helpful (because I can tell just from the way you wrote your response that you believe the opposite of what you stated). I certainly hope you didn't get the impression that I discouraged participation in civil life in my post, because that's certainly not the case at all (as you can see in other responses made).
Sincerely,
A Simple Man
If the liberal government wants you to vote, given that voting isn't intrinsically evil yet could bring many advantages and avoid greater evils, you must participate in elections, specially if the Pope tells you to.
DeleteASM,
DeleteThe only way for people to beat this tyranny in the world is to wake up and together resist by literally NOT doing what the government and health departments are mandating. The whole purpose of the mask is to condition everybody for the vaccine not for the sake of their health but for absolute control and de-population. The UN along with globalist like Klaus Schwab and Bill Gates have admitted this. The only good mask and vaccine is no mask and vaccine. The government needs to fear the people, not the other way around. Problem is too many people are either afraid Covid or unreasonable threats of fines etc. (which is understandable) but in spite of fear people need to be brave and be ready for whatever is to come. The longer people keep complying the faster it will be game over.
Lee
Lee,
DeleteThat is part of the implication of what I cited: if the state acts in an unjust manner, or acts beyond the sphere of its authority, are citizens prepared to suffer the consequences of lawful resistance?
It's something to think about.
A conservative commentator by the name of Mark Steyn had a particularly sobering insight within the past year: "I once worried that there would be a civil war. Now I worry that there won't be." The thrust of that comment is telling: have Americans as a body politic lost the will to suffer inconvenience if it means standing up for their natural rights against the Woke mob?
I shudder to think what circumstances would have to arise for that body politic to be roused into action, in light of everything else which has occurred as of late.
Sincerely,
A Simple Man
A Simple Man,
ReplyDeleteI am somewhat with Lee, I think I understand his position. Basically, according to Catholic teaching we should be sheep when it comes to following the government unless it would violate one of the laws of God or Church? The teaching of the Church is what it is, but it is a hard pill to swallow for a lot of people. Note I am not saying we couldn't take it to court or peacefully protest, but none of that matters with a totalitarian government, which we will soon have.
Let me use concrete examples, 1st: After the Democrats steal the election (which it most certainly is being stolen, there is enough evidence, we don't a court to tell us) lets say 'President' Biden uses an executive order and bans all guns but hunting rifles, regular people peacefully protest and take it to court and lose so there is no other recourse. Despite the 2nd amendment, we as Catholics would have to simply comply and turn our guns over? Correct?
2nd Say the Democrats confiscate 401k's and peoples savings (which liberals have talked about), again people peacefully protest and they take it to the courts and lose once more. We as Catholics have to simply accept it? Correct?
3rd The Cristero's revolution in Mexico was then unlawful according to Catholic teaching?
Also, I know some people will say, well vote them out. Well that is a conundrum when voting will no longer matter because of cheating.
Anyway, I am not trying to be a smart allick here so to speak, I am just trying to really understand the Catholic teaching. Also, I am not trying to belittle Catholic teaching, I know we should rely on the providence of God and that our true purpose is not here in this world, but in the next.
Thanks,
Anon 10:41,
DeleteIf I were still obedient to what people consider lawful authority, I would still be in the Novus ordo Church.
The Cristero's was a necessary revolution because Plutarco Elias Calles was an atheist who persecuted Catholic's and forbade them to practice their religion. Here is a beautiful clip from those who fought against his regime: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mbmaY9Aw63Q
Lee
To anon @10:41 AM,
DeleteI definitely understand yours and Lee's perspectives (and it's one I'm VERY sympathetic to, don't get me wrong). The threshold regarding the line of tyranny can appear to be subjective depending on time and place (seeing as how heretics and sinners would have regarded as tyrannical a confessional state simply seeking to enforce the moral commandments of God). I think part of it may be because my post was geared towards the general matter of obedience to political authority (even in difficult circumstances), and not to particulars (as my mentions of the 2020 Presidential Election only went so far as to acknowledge that improprieties are alleged to have occurred and are being investigated as of the time of writing. The amount of documentary evidence supporting the allegations is, I believe, substantial; however, given that Introibo himself is a lawyer, I did want to keep the language technically correct for the sake of accuracy).
To consider your points in order:
1) Biden's executive order would be an example of an unlawful one in the political order in light of the American Constitution itself, seeing as how the 2nd Amendment is quite clear regarding the right to keep and bear arms. (This also goes into an unrelated point regarding where we have many examples in America today who have judges who act as sort of super-legislators instead of as actual judges who determine a case according to the law as written and intended. Likewise, there are numerous laws on the books regulating firearms as it stands, and many take that as sufficient even though their constitutionality is dubious.) The secular power may then try to enforce it, but seeing as how it would be beyond the scope of their power as prescribed by the more foundational documents, it would not be binding on the order of conscience.
2) That would be an example of outright theft, conducted in an unjust manner. (There is a section from the Summa Theologiae that I will post separately, since it seems to pertain to the questions you ask.)
3) Regarding the Cristeros, there were a few additional factors that gave them protection, I think, under the theory of Just War: the National League for the Defense of Religious Liberty was the political entity (formed from other civil and political associations) that served as a sort of lawful authority under which the Cristeros could fly their banner (which did include military leadership); there was support for the rebellion by the Catholic hierarchy to some extent (although that's a topic all on its own, especially when America's diplomatic involvement is concerned); they did not immediately start with revolution, but escalated in a natural sense as oppressions continued (especially seeing as how many provisions of the 1917 Mexican Constitution were explicitly anti-Catholic). To quote from the opening paragraphs of the 1912 Catholic Encyclopedia’s entry on “War””
“…a people in revolution, in the rare instance of an effort to re-establish civil government which has practically vanished from the community except in name, or to vitalize constitutional rights reserved specifically or residuarily to the people, is conceded to be in like juridical case with a State, as far as protecting its fundamental rights by force of arms.”
In general, as someone who is an ardent supporter of President Trump in many regards, this post was partially written as a reminder to myself that sometimes the spiritual antidotes to tyranny (as the martyrs show) may be what is called for, rather than human action. Yet we also have the examples of the Cristeros, the Maccabees, the Vendee Frenchmen, and St. Joan of Arc as well, seemingly in the other direction. Are we to the point of the latter? I don’t think so.
But we might get there sooner than we think. In the meantime, I try to remind myself (against my natural desires) that suffering injustice for the sake of Christ is supernaturally meritorious.
Sincerely,
A Simple Man
Due to character limits, I can't post the entirety of ST I-II, q. 96, a. 4 in its entirety, so I will simply link it:
ReplyDeletehttps://www.newadvent.org/summa/2096.htm#article4
It discusses whether human law binds a man in conscience, and is a suitable addendum to the original post, given the discussions had in the comments since then.
Sincerely,
A Simple Man
On an entirely unrelated note to the topic at hand: Fr. Michael Oswalt CMRI had his vehicle apparently catch on fire per N.O.W. and Bp. Daniel Dolan. Fortunately, it doesn't appear that he was physically harmed.
ReplyDeleteA GoFundMe has been launched to assist him: https://www.gofundme.com/f/help-father-michael-oswalt-with-car-repairs
Fr. Oswalt currently serves various missions in Georgia, Kentucky, Mississippi, Louisiana, and Tennessee, so a working vehicle is a particular necessity for him.
Sincerely,
A Simple Man
Simple Man,
DeleteThank you for the information! Deo gratias; Fr Oswalt is OK! I urge all my readers who are in a position to do so, to please help him.
---Introibo
I vote for Lee to take over the blog since he is the only one making any sense.
ReplyDeleteAnon 4:11,
DeleteDitto!!
A Simple Man,
DeleteWhat do you think of Qanon?
To anon@4:11 PM,
DeleteGiven that my post was largely extrapolating and summarizing the arguments brought by St. Robert Bellarmine and St. Thomas Aquinas with regards to political authority, how exactly do *they* not make sense?
Were early Christians foolish for accepting martyrdom instead of taking up the sword against the Roman Empire?
Was Christ foolish for not summoning the Heavenly Host to smite the wicked of the world and institute His Kingdom, rather than submitting to the authority of Pilate to be **unjustly** crucified?
To anon@5:35 PM,
My particular thoughts on Q are mixed, to be honest.
On the one hand, just based on the timing of certain posts and the synchronization of certain information, it would **appear** that the individual(s) behind the Q account have some manner of contact with the President, his staff, and/or military intelligence. (That's just my personal suspicion, however. I have no way of providing positive proof.)
However, for something which has been releasing notices since 2017, Q has been what you would call a "slow burn", if you take their word seriously, especially in light of predictions which failed to materialize. After all, the very first post recognized as coming from Q on the 4chan image boards way back in 2017 was as follows, and I quote:
"HRC extradition already in motion effective yesterday with several countries in case of cross border run. Passport approved to be flagged effective 10/30 @ 12:01am. Expect massive riots organized in defiance and others fleeing the US to occur. US M's will conduct the operation while NG activated. Proof check: Locate a NG member and ask if activated for duty 10/30 across most major cities."
Needless to say, there has not been an instance yet - over three years later - where Hillary Clinton ever had to be extradited. Given all the information that Q alleges to have available with regards to exposing corruption, they've chosen a very peculiar method of releasing it.
In general, Q's posts in broad strokes follow these themes: show people the truth; unveil crimes against humanity; political corruption must be exposed; information warfare is how conflict is currently being played out in both media and politics; freedom of thought must be maximized; divisions by sex, class, race, and religion are driven by a nebulous "they" who control all the levers of power; and numerous allusions to a spiritual battle, among others.
Needless to say, these themes certainly aren't unique to Q, and there's a certain humanistic tone to some of their posts that I personally find unsettling. But that's just me.
In all honesty, there are things in my life more worthy of my time than Q, especially the longer events play out without their specific predictions materializing in an observable fashion. (About how long have people been waiting for "the Storm" to occur?)
In the end, Q has no bearing on my eternal salvation.
Sincerely,
A Simple Man
With all due respect, I'd just like to share a few thoughts (feel free to question them in any point):
DeleteThe reason why the early Christians would chose martyrdom in droves was also because such extraordinary means were much needed for the conversion of the pagan world – this is also true of the marvelous miracles performed by the Apostles. Many pagans were awe-struck up to a point of joining in with the martyrs in their last act of proclaiming the True Faith. I strongly encourage anyone to listen to a sermon given by Bp. Sanborn on “The Miracle of the Church’s Propagation”, in which he discusses why such heroic acts won’t convert the paganized world of today. There’s a world of a difference between excruciatingly painful but meritorious death out of love for Christ and being sunk into misery because one’s lost his or her business, died because he or she was denied basic medical care (there are already about 19,000 of such casualties in Poland now, excessive casualties caused by almost complete lack of medical care – the highest number since the end of World War II – no, I’m not exaggerating, it’s all in the official statistics). These people could have lived, there’s a chance they could have been converted to the True Faith. All this looming bolshevism won’t spare Traditional Catholics and we have still much, much to do. Catholics in the US (despite the often silly yet quite natural divisions) are well-organized and active; my country is like a spiritual desert, with only one openly sedevacantist priest. There are two Polish seminarians (one at the Most Holy Trinity, the other at the Mater Boni Consilii Institute in Italy); will they be able to take care of the needy souls when they finish their courses and are finally ordained? I can’t remember the name now, but there was a saint who would reprimand his religious missionary brothers who were touting martyrdom too much. Our priests are too precious, especially now that we have so few of them.
Secondly, Christ did not object to the crowd-imposed death sentence because out of respect for public authority (the crowd possessing none of it, obviously) but for the sake of the Old Law's fulfillment. See that Pilate, representing the lawful authority of Rome in Judea at that time, did wash his hands - isn't it a sign that the verdict has nothing to do with politics, but belongs to the supernatural order of things? This is just my reasoning.
God Bless,
Joanna S.
Oops, sorry for the typos.
DeleteHere's the link to Bp. Sanborn's sermon:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rYq03B51UiQ
God Bless,
Joanna S.
Joanna S,
DeleteHow does Bp. Sanborn know that heroic acts won't convert anybody today? Does it matter whether they do?
Martyrdom is not about whether somebody else converts but rather one sticking with Catholic principles and teachings because of a firm belief in them and ones willingness to die for them out of love for Christ and his Church, if the occasion comes down to it.
I'm not saying everybody should go out and become a martyr or do something imprudent but being a patriot is part of ones Catholic duty no matter what country you live in regardless of how flawed the country's system is. St. Joan of Arc was a patriot and France's government wasn't at all perfect in her day. If you lose a small business or your house because the government is tyrannical, then what else could they take from you, especially when you have Democrat governors (in America) who want to keep babies comfortable before they suck their brains out from an abortion and harvest their organs? In America, they are persecuting people for going to Church. This includes Traditional Catholic chapels and churches and yet hooligans have been out in the streets for the last four years tearing up everything and shouting No Trump, No wall, No USA at all, while governors and mayors (including some Republican) aren't following their own draconian Covid rules while expecting everybody else to do so. Vaccines are another issue which is threatening because once they are out they are gradually going to be the new normal unless people collectively (as they have been) show a rejection of it. They are bad not just because of ingredients with cells from aborted babies but also because of the other toxic metallic/synthetic ingredients and which can cause serious side effects. These things should outrage any thinking person and you have a right to defend yourself.
Lee
ASM, I'm Anon 4:11. I'll call myself "Spock." You asked "...how exactly do *they* not make sense?" You also asked: "Were early Christians foolish for accepting martyrdom instead of taking up the sword against the Roman Empire?"
DeleteGood questions. Let me ponder them but in the meantime, here's one for you: were the early Christians governed by and legally protected under the United States Constitution? Thanks.
To Lee,
Delete"...being a patriot is part of ones Catholic duty no matter what country you live in regardless of how flawed the country's system is...[the things previously listed] should outrage any thinking person and you have a right to defend yourself." On that, you and I are 100% in agreement.
To be clear: I have not said, nor argued, that resistance to government is **always unlawful** (as St. Thomas Aquinas points out in numerous places, there are spheres of authority wherein the secular authority may lawfully work, and their particular mode of government will also place restrictions on the degree of lawfulness within the political order). However, I did want to provide a reminder (to myself as well, driven by what others within my personal circles have said) that there is a supernatural lens through which we must also view temporal affairs. Given how charged politics has become in America as of late, it can sometimes be difficult to remember that.
To Spock,
It should go without saying that the Christians underneath the Roman Empire wouldn't be under the legal umbrella of a constitution which wouldn't exist for many centuries.
There may come a point where political authority within America has become so unlawful that resistance becomes the only lawful option in order to restore the common good. Just speaking historically, I can't deny that possibility, nor can I condemn it should that day come (because again, we have numerous examples throughout Church history of military endeavors receiving ecclesial approbation when the circumstances called for it).
I just don't think we're there yet. Will it come within my lifetime?
Personally, I believe it will. I just don't know when.
Sincerely,
A Simple Man
ASM, my point was to illustrate an important difference between early Christians and what we are facing today. For the safety and security of not only ourselves but future generations I believe we are obliged to defend the Constitution and our freedoms enunciated therein, with force if need be. I believe that if the early Christians had been governed under such a document they too would have fought for the same reasons. I think it matters if you are born into bondage and oppression as opposed to living through a hostile takeover which threatens to destroy freedom that currently exists. Thanks for responding. Spock
DeleteA Simple Man,
ReplyDeleteIn the end, Q has no bearing on my eternal salvation. Ok, but I guess politics has a bearing on your salvation?
To anon @6:44 AM,
DeletePolitics has a bearing on any given person's salvation as follows, I would argue:
1) Are the political authorities demanding that you engage in an action which is intrinsically against the divine law of God?
2) Do the duties of your state in life obligate you to a certain level of participation in civic life?
I think from these two general principles, all particular cases of how politics bears on one's salvation will follow.
Sincerely,
A Simple Man
Louis Verrecchio, put out a good article recently. I suggest people take time to read it. Here is the link: https://akacatholic.com/covid-decade-of-action/
ReplyDeleteLee
Lee,
DeleteProve Covid is a scam. Anyone can say anything about anything, but proving it is another thing.
the proof is in the pudding. it's really barely deadly to be a pandemic.
DeleteI can honestly say that 9 Months and I have not met one single person who personally knows someone who died from COVID. Since this is supposed to be a pandemic which places all of our lives in imminent danger, that fact is enough for me. Not sure what Lee will say. Spock
DeleteAnon 1:03,
DeleteWhy don't you prove that it's not a scam. The virus is real but the narrative by the constant fake news media is not real. It's not that deadly. 99% survival rate. We should have quit talking about this months ago but the Great Reset can only be done if people keep living in fear.
You tell me how Bill Gates not only predicted an epidemic from 5 years ago (and continued to talk about in the years to come) but also how to prepare for it. It's like he had a plan for this. Watch this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qD9ya36Hx_k
The idea that masks work is baloney and is not based on science but rather a conditioning on everybody so that they accept the coming vaccine. Here is a video (I've posted this before) that shows what science really says about the use masks https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=duPJmQDQuyo
If this doesn't convince you take a look at what Dr. Fauci said back in March here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=23hvLiA2akE Why did he change his mind if he is a so called expert and knew the studies?
Why does this doctor say the opposite: https://www.youtube.com/embed/GjfL3DigBLU
Lee
Also Anon 1:03,
DeleteIf this is not a scam, explain to me why governors and mayors get caught not following their own rules. If it's so deadly and they are so worried about your health and well being why are they obviously not concerned with their own health and well being? Example here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5rHZkjDi2Is
Lee
idk, there is a difference between the Roman Empire, which had no real succession mechanism, and therefore any usurper was de facto the lawful authority to obey except if it caused sin/scandal/unlawfulness/danger (to all the faithful and the subjects at large, not just individual martyrs)... and today's situation, in which the lawful ruler Trump is apparently getting the election stolen by a pretender, who has not yet become the lawful authority by the way, and whose pretension is currently disputed in many courts.
ReplyDeleteof course, if the pretender does become the usurper of authority, we can obey him in what can lawfully be obeyed, and perhaps to avoid scandal and danger (notwithstanding individual martyrs), but no more. and of course, if the scandal or danger caused by disobedience are much worse than what a potential righteous disobedience could accomplish, then better to obey. however, i doubt the globalist-freemasonic complex can be lawfully obeyed at this point, without pretty much allowing them to promote sin and death in every day life. in other times at least the Romans allowed catacombs, and the Germanics and other pagans had some degree of tolerance that eventually resulted in conversions. today's heathens, not so much - inspired by the unrepentant Jews perhaps, they want Christ's blood upon them.
so yes, give to Caesar what belongs to Caesar, but nothing more.
Noucvnt,
Deleteyou're absolutely right about the ancient Romans and barbaric peoples having some sort of tolerance towards the Truth. I'll once again point to Bp. Sanborn's sermon I already mentioned in my previous comment: the Bishop argues that these ancient pagans had no initial obstacle, no pre-desposition against the True Faith; they lived their sinful lives without any prior knowledge of the True Church of Christ. The heathens of today have already known the Truth and willfully turned their backs on God; they don't want to hear the Truth anymore and keep on bragging about their immoral lifestyles - don't we all have this kind of experience with the Novus Ordo people?
There's still some hope that America won't succumb to the bolshevik tyranny of "Democrats" (Florida, for instance, seems free from the fake covid hysteria); I'm already a criminal in my own country for not wearing the shameful mask as the mask mandate (among some other wicked precepts) has been made LAW in Poland. No public outcry followed.
My fellow countrymen have gone from brave Catholics who would drive away the bolshevik mob in 1920 with Our Lady's powerful help (The Miracle on the Vistula) to degenarate weaklings in just 100 years. Why? 80 years of communism and post-communism did its thing.
You still have your guns, my friends.
God Bless You,
Joanna S.
Lee,
DeleteJust because you don't know someone who died from the virus, therefore, the virus is a scam. You claim to be pro-life, but evidently don't care about people you don't know dying. How hypocritical. You lack empathy and that is not good. No wonder people think traditionalists are weird and nuts. There is no reasoning with people like you. Go read some more conspiracy theory websites. Sad to say but I fear this once good blog is turning into a conspiracy theory blog with people thinking they are the Pope and spouting errorneous dogma.
Anon 4:42,
DeleteIt's a sin to falsely accuse somebody of something that isn't true, which you did of me. I do have empathy for those who have died but that doesn't mean we should shut down our livelihoods and have unreasonable rules which don't make anything any better (dare I say, worse in other ways). I explained myself quite clearly and answered your questions about whether it was a scam by showing you websites where Bill Gates and Dr. Fauci said their statements and others which explained the science. You don't have to agree with it. They weren't conspiracy theory websites either. You need to be pro life by getting a life.
Lee
Anon 4:42 (AKA JoAnn) Wow you packed a lot of insults into that paragraph. To recap, people who believe the virus is a scam are "uncaring" "hypocritical" "lacking in empathy" "unreasonable" and "conspiracy theorists." Then you more or less told Lee to leave this blog and go elsewhere. Aren't you the same person who "threatened" to leave this blog a while back because somebody some similar things to you? LOL Here we go again. Oh No, JoAnn is threatening to leave the blog again because of Lee. Time for another Introibo intervention.
DeleteLee, Why don't you practice what you preach? You accuse and equate people dying of Covid as a scam. I guess that is acceptable in your world of conspiracy theories.
DeleteAll this blog needs now to make it a full fledged conspiracy theorist blog is for some flat earthers to spew their nonsense and beliefs. I thought the owner of this blog was a science teacher at one point. Now it seems to be totally anti-science much like the Protestant Evangelicals which is where most of this anti-science bunk stems from.
Lee,
Delete"You need to be pro life by getting a life." You are not pro life, but pro death.
Anon 8:04,
DeleteYou show yourself to be weak and one who can't defend his/her position but who nevertheless accuses others of being in favor of conspiracy theories, anti-science, and other false accusations. That's exactly what Protestants and Novus Ordos do. Why don't you stop acting like a libtard?
Lee
Lee,
DeleteWith you it seems there is no middle ground. I refuse to engage your insults any further. If it makes you feel any better, I admit I am "weak", etc, etc, etc...
With all due respect I am Anon 7:27 PM & 7:38 AM and I am NOT Lee. I am the person who said I don't know anyone who died of covid and I also identified JoAnn as the blogger attacking Lee. Just wanted to clarify.
DeleteAnon 9:17,
DeleteSo it's okay for you to insult me by falsely accusing me of things that are nonsensical, but it's not okay for me to defend myself and tell you the truth, which you find insulting. You call me pro-death, but you are pro-tyranny/Communism which at the end of the day is pro death to poor people and families.
Lee
To the Anonymous poster debating Lee,
DeleteRhetoric aside, there are a few items for your consideration, in the interest of fairness:
1) It has been documented through decades worth of prior studies that masks below the level of full hazmat gear (wherein your head is completely externally sealed from outside air, with respiration occurring through an equal grade of filtration) were ineffective at halting the inhalation of respiratory bacteria or viruses (with the particular focus being on influenza). Why then would certain studies released this year (some of dubious methodology) reverse decades' worth of prior findings to support the mask mandates to stop coronavirus?
2) If masks were so important with regards to mitigating the spread of COVID-19, why then do there exist proverbial legions of viral videos and photos depicting journalists, politicians, and celebrities taking off their masks once they believe the cameras are off?
3) If social distancing is so important with regards to mitigating the spread of COVID-19, why then do media figures and politicians not condemn all violations of such with equal ferocity (for example, the President's rallies were condemned as "super-spreader events", while the much more densely packed protests and riots by Black Lives Matter, Antifa, et al were not condemned as such by the same people, Dr. Anthony Fauci among them)?
4) Pursuant to the prior two points, the personal behavior of those calling for lockdowns and reduced in-person activity by the general public betrays their own personal concern about the virus's lethality: namely, not enough for them to stop their own personal meetings (two recent examples: CA Governor Newsom's fine dining with over a dozen people with no masks; the mayor of Denver flying to Mississippi to spend Thanksgiving with his family mere hours after advising Denver citizens to not travel for Thanksgiving). In other words, they "talk the talk" but don't "walk the walk."
5) With regards to coronavirus's disputed fatality rates, there are myriad consequences of shutting down daily economic life - for weeks and months - for the entire body politic that goes beyond mere dollars. The economy is merely a large-scale representation of the choices people make with regards to the allocation of resources; as has been documented in numerous places (with anecdotes and statistics, and not just in America), the lockdowns of have resulted in the devastation of small businesses, increased domestic violence rates, increased substance abuse rates, and an increase of suicides. There is a tangible human cost at hand (albeit one that plays over a longer timeframe than those who die simply from COVID-19).
To conclude that Lee, because he opposes mask mandates or government-imposed lockdowns, is therefore "pro-death" is not only an uncharitable assessment, but it's also an objectively inaccurate one.
Sincerely,
A Simple Man
Anon 10:09, Wasn't addressing you, just wanted to clarify.
DeleteAs one last addendum, for the entire previous discussion in general: disagreements can be had without rancor or personal derision. Even when correcting or disputing someone else, our words must be motivated by charity.
Delete"If I speak with the tongues of men, and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. And if I should have prophecy and should know all mysteries, and all knowledge, and if I should have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing. And if I should distribute all my goods to feed the poor, and if I should deliver my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing. Charity is patient, is kind: charity envieth not, dealeth not perversely; is not puffed up; Is not ambitious, seeketh not her own, is not provoked to anger, thinketh no evil; Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth with the truth; Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things. Charity never falleth away: whether prophecies shall be made void, or tongues shall cease, or knowledge shall be destroyed." - The First Epistle of St. Paul to the Corinthians, Chapter 13, verses 1 through 8.
Sincerely,
A Simple Man
Anon 10:09,
DeleteYou seem to be obsessed with someone named JoAnn - why, just because someone doesn't subscribe to your dogmatic opinions?
I really do not understand the Trad Cath's dogmatic viewpoints on the virus. If I am permitted to state that without being equated to someone else or being labelled a "libtard" by Lee.
Anon 11:27,
DeleteI'm annoyed with your attacks on people like Lee and the other anonymous person.
All Lee is doing is posting videos and explaining his position concretely. You are either not watching the video links he is posting or not reading with an open mind what he is saying. It's not "dogmatic opinion" any more than your opinion is "dogmatic."
If you are so convinced and worried that everybody on here is wrong and that we're all going to die of Covid, why don't you prove your points instead of expecting others to prove their and afterwards labeling them "pro death" "conspiracy theorist" "anti-science" etc. and then turn around and say I'm not engaging with unreasonable people.
It's you that is being ridiculous and everybody sees it.
James N.
I'm not obsessed with you it's just that I recognized you by your characteristic persecution syndrome but OK let's all pretend you're not JoAnn.
DeleteA Simple Man,
DeleteMy apologizes if I offended you or anyone else. I don't expect any apologizes from any of you, however cause you are always right no matter how others are disparaged who don't agree with you. I was told to "get a life", and called a "libtard" but evidently that is ok in your book. You have no consistency in how or who you call out as you are biased. Good bye.
Anon 2:40,
DeleteYou are the one who first said (before anybody else) to Lee "You claim to be pro-life, but evidently don't care about people you don't know dying." Then you said he lacked empathy. Then you said there is no reasoning with him. Then like a snob, you told him to go read more conspiracy theory websites and that this website is more like a conspiracy theory website without defending your point of view.
Now you are acting like a victim with a fake apology because you think you are as right as anybody else you disagree with based on how you wrote your comment.
You deserve to be called a libtard and to get a life because it is you that has a problem.
People can call this post "uncharitable" but it is people like this Anon 2:40 that are the problem in this world and who are truly the uncharitable ones. Pope St. Pius X used to say modernist deserved to be beaten with fists. Nobody today would consider that charitable, but sometimes it's necessary because people like this are truly ill-willed.
To Anon@2:40 PM,
DeleteMy comment regarding the need to speak with charity (per St. Paul) was directed at everyone.
The issue of uncharitable rhetoric (from both you and Lee) is separate from the fact that you were objectively incorrect about the charges you were making against him (namely, that he is pro-death for being anti-lockdown, or that he's somehow being equivalent to a flat-earther by lawfully disputing official narratives).
Given that Lee provided citations for his points which you never responded to, and given how you proceeded to act as if he had not done so, only solidifies the appearance that you are arguing in bad faith. To list but one exchange as an example:
xxxx
You from 4:42 AM: "Just because you don't know someone who died from the virus, therefore, the virus is a scam."
Lee from 6:00 AM: "I do have empathy for those who have died but that doesn't mean we should shut down our livelihoods and have unreasonable rules which don't make anything any better (dare I say, worse in other ways). I explained myself quite clearly and answered your questions about whether it was a scam by showing you websites where Bill Gates and Dr. Fauci said their statements and others which explained the science. You don't have to agree with it." (And, to specify what scam he's referring to, refer to a post from further above, where Lee explicitly said "The virus is real but the narrative by the constant fake news media is not real.")
You, in response at 8:04 AM: "Lee, Why don't you practice what you preach? You accuse and equate people dying of Covid as a scam."
xxxx
This is a textbook example of someone attacking a straw man of their own making.
Among others, the above is one reason as to why I am not as inclined to give you as much credence.
Sincerely,
A Simple Man
Simple Man,
DeleteThank you for your level-headed and charitable replies to this acrimonious exchange.
My dear readers, please remember the dictum of St. Augustine:
In essential unity, in non-essentials liberty, in all things, CHARITY.
This world is going through enough right now. All of us must remember the admonition of St. Paul:
"Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers." (Galations 6:10). There are so few of us left. Let us be kind. Speak your mind, have your opinions, but please be charitable. I'm including myself in my own
advice because I can be a hot-head at times.
God Bless You All,
---Introibo
As for charity, and as someone who has experienced suicidal thoughts, it's really astonishing that the average Corona Karen does not care about us. If my father dies of covid it will be very sad but at least we will know he loved us and he died of something he could not control. We could have more hope that he is on Heaven. When you commit suicide you are asking others to do the same thing. The health of the soul is superior to the health of the body. This is why lockdowns are gravely uncharitable, and they should not continue.
Delete
ReplyDeleteI republish my comment for those who missed it.
I want to recommend Catholics to download any catholic material they want/need. I am afraid of future internet censorships and i think it would be a good idea if all of us download catholic books, articles, and papal writings not only for ourselves but also to share them with potential future converts.
To give you ideas, I think you can download out of print books in the internet archive, for example, i found the Summa Theologica. Also, i have downloaded many articles form the web using the Books application in my I-Pad; i ignore if a mac compute or a cellphone can do so, but i believe it is worth a try.
Here is a website that has all of St. Alphonsus Liguori's writings including books where you can click on the link and read anything he ever wrote. https://www.goodcatholicbooks.org/alphonsus.html
DeleteGreat stuff,
Lee
There are also a multitude of great resources here:
Deletehttps://www.traditionalcatholic.co/free-catholicbooks/
https://www.traditionalcatholic.co/free-catholic-books-ii/
Sincerely,
A Simple Man
Thank you so much.
DeleteTo A Simple Man and/or Introibo,
ReplyDeleteThis is anon@4:08am.
I understand your statement concerning the lack of guilt by a taxpayer for the sin of a government financially supporting abortion. Is accepting a vaccine that has used fetal cells also an example of a lack of remote, mediate, material cooperation with the original evil act on the vaccine recipient's part? So, is there a sort of absolution of guilt for the recipient in that they have not taken part in the original evil act. Like the taxpayer as you stated earlier is there a lack of guilt intrinsically imputed to the vaccine recipient who intends other than what the original abortionist intended?
Thank you for any help offered.
@anon1:12
DeleteBased on the theologians I've read (McHugh and Callan, Prummer, Jone, St Alphonsus, etc.) I believe it would only be remote material cooperation, and could also be supported by the principle of the double effect. I would need to do more research, but that is my belief at this point, subject to correction.
God Bless,
---Introibo
I know this is vaguely related to the post, but is it allowable to respect flags that have communist (flags of China, Vietnam, etc.) or Islamic (flags of Turkey, Algeria, etc.) or masonic backgrounds (flags of France, Philippines, etc.)?
ReplyDeleteThank you.
@anon4:05
DeleteAs long as you live there and are under their authority, one may show simple respect for the flag. The United States flag represents Masonic ideals (separation of Church and State, etc) but standing and reciting the pledge was never forbidden. If the pledge of a Moslem country would expressly invoke Allah, their false god, or require an implicit acceptance of Islam, such pledge could not be done as it would stand directly opposed to the First Commandment.
---Introibo
So I am only hindered from showing respect to a sinful pledge, but not necessarily from a flag with symbols with uncatholic backrounds, such as the hammer and sickle, is that correct?
Delete@anon8:38
DeleteEvery Catholic is called to be patriotic. It is not love of the government that rules you, though it does demand respect for that government and obedience to its just laws. It is not an ideological commitment to the founding principles of the nation in which you were born. It is to love the land of the people that sired you.
As long as a pledge or salute does not entail idolatry or an explicit/implicit acceptance of an intrinsic evil, it is not forbidden to pledge or salute a flag FOR THE NATION IT REPRESENTS. Hence, when I salute or pledge allegiance to the United States flag, I am not saluting or pledging allegiance to abortion on demand, sodomite marriage, or Masonic separation of Church and State.
---Introibo
Thank you, thank you very much Introibo.
DeleteI was just listening to a long video featuring the always brilliant and thoughtful Alan Keyes. He was speaking about the election and made what I thought was a very compelling statement: that the fraud that is strongly evident in the mishandling of ballots and in the entire process in November 2020 is similar to "lese majeste", insofar as we the people are sovereign according to our Constitution, and an attack on the body of a king is the same treason as an attack on we the people through an attack on our political processes.
ReplyDeleteI had never thought of it that way, and I wondered what any of the posters here may have to say about it. It seems we have come to believe over the past 200+ years that we elect people to rule over us so that they have come to feel they are sovereign, and at the same time we have lost sight of the fact that when the government becomes intolerable in its usurpation of our "sovereignty" we must tilt it back towards liberty based on Divine and natural law. Even if we must revolt to do so. That is very distasteful, but it is the way our system is constituted.
Again, thank you ASM, for an excellent post.
Thanks, too, Introibo, as always for the information you provide.
Jannie
Jannie,
DeleteThank you for your comments and adding so much good quality to this blog! I'm glad you like Simple Man's post. He is an excellent "guest poster" who has given me the respite I need.
God Bless,
---Introibo
Jannie,
DeleteAs to Mr. Keyes ideas, it may come to the point where resistance is necessary, but I agree (for the reasons amply provided by Simple Man) that we are still not to that point.
---Introibo
It would be a very different world if Alan Keyes had triumphed over Barack Obama in the 2004 election for the U.S. Senate seat from Illinois.
DeleteGranted, even back then, I imagine Keyes's philosophically sound argumentation flew over the heads of not just Obama, but also the majority of people listening to the debate.
Here's one excerpt regarding marriage: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dn6x_9CLTB4
How far we've come in less than two decades!
Sincerely,
A Simple Man
from anon@1:12
ReplyDeleteIntroibo,
Thank you for all that you do! This a very helpful answer to my question, and most needed. I wish you and your family a very Merry Christmas as well as Feast of the Immaculate Comnception!
Your blog is one of my favorites in the clarity of thought and theological accuracy. Well done, please keep up this valuable aid to all who desperately need it.
I always have looked forward to ASM's comments - also for their clear, concise erudition. Best of wishes to you both!
Thanks again!
@anon1:36
DeleteThank you my friend! Comments like yours keep me writing! (And I'm sure Simple Man appreciates them too)!
God Bless,
---Introibo
Does this statement below sound like it comes from a country known as the LAND OF THE FREE and home of the brave? Think again...
ReplyDeleteCity of Aberdeen, Mississippi Police Department
9:54 AM
Good morning citizens of Aberdeen, We are now under a mandate that has been set by the governors office that will be enforced.
The mandate says 10 people on the inside and 50 on the outside. If you scheduled events please start making provisions to cancel them if they are going to be on the inside. Please don’t try and figure out how you can get around it because the fine will take majority of your profit.
Curfew will be enforced starting Monday, it will be 11:00 p.m. - 4:00 a.m. attitudes and cussing will be giving a citation for disorderly conduct and possibly a vehicle being towed so heed the warning. Ask employers for badges or some type of paper work for proof.
As far as Christmas parties, pop-up shops, card games, any social gatherings that exceed 10 people, we will be writing the tickets. We ask that you follow the mandate.
Aberdeen Police Department will also start collecting fines that are due. We will expect 100% of the fine so this will not come as a surprise. Do NOT call my phone when they get you or someone you think that can help you. We will start serving warrants December 14, 2020.
Don’t call the Mayor or city councilman/ ladies, they can’t help you. We just want a safe and productive city. We appreciate everything you all can do to help us on this matter.
I don't live there, but this is what happens when people fear the government (Tyranny). When the government fears the people there is liberty.
Lee
Lee, this sort of thing is happening everywhere and the majority of people are unfortunately JoAnns and Karens who really believe this is necessary and laudable and that our government really cares for our safety. Horrific times ahead. Watch your back and watch out of these kinds of people: https://twitter.com/RT_com/status/1332232695380905984
DeleteFlattening the Curve. Wake up.
DeleteLee,
DeleteThis is also the fruit of the breakdown in Christendom, wherein all factions of civil and ecclesial society were united by a holy fear of God and a love for Christ, and thus worked in cohesion as a truly sacramental state (the Kingdom of France under the reign of St. Louis IX is probably the most well-known example of such).
A government which has lost its due regard for God (whether it be the greater ideal of love for Him or a lesser servile fear of His Justice) will naturally slide over time into a more sordid condition reflecting the state of man fallen from grace.
However, a particular wrinkle specific to America with regards to state authority in terms of pandemic response and public health emergencies is that they retain the majority of power relative to the federal government, thanks to the 10th Amendment of the Constitution. (There are areas where state powers may conflict with other Amendments in terms of due process, but this is, needless to say, a highly complicated and murky area legally, sometimes not even consistent in case law with regards to the same subject.)
In Mississippi's case, their state laws (the Mississippi Code of 1972, annotated and current through 2019) relate to the issue of quarantines and prescribed penalties as follows under § 41-23-1 and § 41-23-2:
42-23-1 (7): "Any person other than a practicing or licensed physician, or person in charge of a hospital or health-care facility, willfully failing to make the reports required under this section shall be guilty of a misdemeanor and, upon conviction, shall be punished by a fine of not more than Five Hundred Dollars ($500.00) or by confinement in the county jail for not more than thirty (30) days, or both."
42-23-2: "Any person who shall knowingly and willfully violate the lawful order of the county, district or state health officer where that person is afflicted with a life-threatening communicable disease or the causative agent thereof shall be guilty of a felony and, upon conviction, shall be punished by a fine not exceeding Five Thousand Dollars ($5,000.00) or by imprisonment in the penitentiary for not more than five (5) years, or by both."
The code for MS can be accessed here (and I'm sure the Secretary of State for each individual state has similar online editions of their state laws): https://www.sos.ms.gov/Education-Publications/Pages/Mississippi-Code.aspx
The issue is that, per Mississippi's own laws, the above mandate is lawful...**on its face**, seeing as how the State Board of Health (per § 41-23-1) has unilateral authority to designate a disease as Class 1 or Class 2 (and thereby considered by the state as a threat to the public health). Disputing their measures (**please note that I am not a lawyer by profession, and the following does not constitute legal advice**) would require one (or some combination) of the following:
1) Disputing that COVID-19 deserves to be classified as a disease worthy of pandemic response by the State Board of Health, based on the statistical evidence available (in addition to utilizing documented cases of other public officials that have not followed the guidance of the State Board of Health – nor have been penalized under such – and thereby introducing positive doubt as to whether the State Board of Health is justified in classifying the disease as they have).
2) Disputing that the designated mandates are arbitrarily enforced or selectively targeted against certain industries versus others (with no real methodology to support such disparate treatment), thereby violating equal protection under the law.
3) Disputing on a more fundamental basis that the mandates and penalties prescribed do greater harm to the common welfare than not having them in place.
Sincerely,
A Simple Man
As an addendum to the above post on Mississippi's laws: this lends itself to an even more fundamental discussion regarding how legalized American society has become, particular as our culture has become less unified around common fundamental principles and ideas.
DeleteTo quote the philosopher and statesman Edmund Burke (a member of the British House of Commons from 1766 to 1794, a critic of British policy toward the American colonies, a supporter of Catholic emancipation in Great Britain and Ireland, and a staunch opponent of the French Revolution, its principles, its effects on society, and the subsequent persecution of the Catholic Church which resulted from it): "Manners are of more importance than laws. Upon them, in a great measure, the laws depend. The law touches us but here and there, and now and then. Manners are what vex or soothe, corrupt or purify, exalt or debase, barbarize or refine us, but a constant, steady, uniform, insensible operation, like that of the air we breathe in. They give their whole form and color to our lives. According to their quality, they aid morals, they supply them, or they totally destroy them." - Letters on a Regicide Peace, Letter 1 (1796)
A good essay on the importance of manners as envisioned by Burke can be read here (https://theimaginativeconservative.org/2012/12/edmund-burke-on-manners.html). A particular quote from this piece that rings loudly now: "...the freer we become from our history and our neighbors and our responsibilities, the more enslaved we are to our own passions and to the central power that affects to minister to them."
Needless to say, America is currently a society that's long on law and increasingly short on manners, to our continuing detriment.
Sincerely,
A Simple Man
Anon 3:57
DeleteThank you. You take care of yourself as well.
Anon 4:07
99 + % survival rate.
6% out of the 94% who died, died strictly from Covid, while the 94% died mainly of something else.
You wake up and stop letting Covid turn you into a Commie. Be American or move to China.
Lee
@anon3:57
DeleteJust caught your disparaging remark concerning one of my long-time readers and commenters, Joann. There is no need for such vitriol. Please do not call names, especially to good Traditionalists, like Joann, who disagree. Moreover, this is a non-theological matter.
In Charity to All,
---Introibo
While i disagree strongly with JoAnn, i do believe that charity is a good means of combating coronaphobia. When the people who have the information & believe it behave uncharitable towards those who reject it the message is lost even more. Having said this, i don't really see the comment of anon 3;57 to be grossly uncharitable, yet if he had stayed with the therm "karen" which is more general than JoAnn which is the name of the commenter in question, it would be less offensive.
DeleteThe last few weeks I have been called names such as "Karen", "a moron", "idiot", "nit wit" and had my "reasoning ability" attacked because of my personal opinion on the virus since my husband became hospitalized due to Covid. A few weeks ago I was hospitalized with very high blood pressure and had a TIA as a result which is the precursor to a stroke. Introibo asked for prayer for me and my condition and many people stated they were praying for me and one person had a Mass said for me and I am most grateful to those people. I am experiencing a crisis of faith and much of it was exacerbated by the vitriol and name calling I have experienced here. I am 66 yrs old and have never been called names such as those I have experienced on this Catholic blog. To say I am confused by the name calling and extreme vitriol is an understatement. I do not understand what has come over people who are supposed to be Christian using such crass name calling to one another. I don't know why we just can't agree to disagree on our personal opinions on the virus without the name calling and some treating their opinions on the virus as dogma. I have been commenting on this blog for the last 5 yrs when I finally found Tradition at the age of 61 yrs. I have learned so much and always felt that this blog was a sort of home where Sedes could congregate, learn the Faith, and support one another on our journey. I no longer feel that way and this saddens me immensely. Please pray for me as the crisis of Faith I am experiencing is overwhelming. I wish everyone well.
DeleteProverbs 18:19
"A brother offended is harder to be won than a strong city: and their contentions are like the bars of a castle."
JoAnn
Joann,
DeleteMy apologies for any offensive remarks. I ask my readers to pray for your faith and physical health. We would all do well to remember Proverbs 18.
---Introibo
JoAnn
DeleteYou should not loose your faith over someone calling you names. This blog has been growing since you came and it includes a larger section of people, some of them are very angry when they write. Please keep in mind that, when words like f***, sh**, b**** and m***** f***** are present everywhere, "moron" "karen" and "stupid" loose strength for some people. I have had doubts too and it is not good, specially if they are triggered for no good argument.
Blessings
JoAnn,
DeleteAs we discussed previously on a prior post regarding Trump and Biden, I had disclosed my reasons as to why I didn't (and still don't) considered being called unreasonable an insult; that being said, my apology to you also still holds, as I didn't mean to cause offense.
With regards to the general treatment you've received from others: it is a sad commentary that public discourse over the Internet has become more course, regardless of what section you find yourself in. (As the anon@6:19 PM pointed out, the relative level of discourse on this board is incredibly mild compared to other places on the Internet.) The greater importance placed by society on politics over the past decade or so has also resulted in an increase of passions with regards to this subject, to the point where people would say things in argumentation that they honestly would never dream of saying to another person face-to-face. (Granted, there are some who do in fact talk in real life the same way they talk online, as untold numbers of Youtube political footage will show.)
I strongly and heartily counsel you to not despair over the behavior of those who fail to live up to the disciplines prescribed by the Church with regards to social behavior, since every single age in the life of the Church contained saints and scoundrels and everything in between.
Sentiments fade and peace may be disturbed, by the Faith will last until the end of all things, when there will no longer be a need for Faith (in the strict sense), as Jesus Christ in the coming of His Glory will reveal Himself to all who live and all who have passed away.
In the meantime, to everyone in general, I strongly recommend that you recall the words of King Solomon:
"He that is of a perverse heart, shall not find good: and he that perverteth his tongue, shall fall into evil." - Proverbs 17:20
"He that keepeth his mouth and his tongue, keepeth his soul from distress." - Proverbs 21:23
"By patience a prince shall be appeased, and a soft tongue shall break hardness." - Proverbs 25:15
I'll keep you in my prayers JoAnn.
Cordially yours,
A Simple Man
Anon 6:19,
Delete"You should not loose your faith over someone calling you names."
Agreed. However, these are supposedly Catholic Christian people using such verbage. Let me clarify that my crisis of faith is not to only name calling, but was exacerbated and compounded by the excessive name calling for the past few weeks. The name calling and vitriol was the proverbial straw that broke the camel's back so to speak. Please pray for me that I can persevere. Thank you for your concern.
JoAnn
Introibo,,
DeleteIn my humble opinion there is no excuse for allowing such offensive name calling to repeatedly go on. To repeatedly do so makes you complicit in the repercussions.
@anon8:00
DeleteYou are correct. I must be more vigilant. I don't want there to be any censorship (with the exception of vulgarity/blasphemy), but if a comment is clearly uncharitable in tone, I will withhold publishing it. People are free to speak their minds here, but just as you can express a strong opinion without vulgarity or blasphemy, so too can you express yourself strongly but charitably. Consider me fraternally corrected with a promise to be more vigilant.
God Bless,
---Introibo
JoAnn,
DeleteThank you for your clarification,
Maybe stay away from discussions till you feel better.
Anon @ 8:23,
DeleteI intend to stay away. I am not a glutton for punishment due to my personal opinion on the virus which is non-theological to begin with. I am very sorry I expressed an opinion on the virus subject to begin with as people can't seem to just agree to disagree and leave it at that. Nothing positive has come out of the discussions concerning the virus and the consequences of such discussions have proven to be much to dire. Live and learn!
JoAnn
ASM @7:04,
DeleteYou called me out for my lack of "reasoning ability" because my personal opinion didn't jive with your personal on the virus. However, I didn't see you call out the Anon who referred to me and equated me to a "Karen" under your watch and admonished people to "watch your back and watch out for these kind of people". Nor did I see you come forward and call out those who referred to me as a "nit wit, "moron" or "idiot" the previous week. This is supposed to be a Catholic Christian blog not your typical social media such as Facebook, etc. where anything goes. I also don't recall you previously apologizing for the lack of "reasoning ability" comment.
JoAnn
JoAnn,
Delete1) With regards to my prior apology on 10/26 @ 4:48 PM, you had previously responded to it on the other post, at which point I elaborated on why I said what I did over two comments: (http://introiboadaltaredei2.blogspot.com/2020/10/the-faith-trumps-biden.html?showComment=1603767809622#c6480463989097846325). On that particular post, there was no name-calling directed at you that I’m aware of.
The majority of comments that first came about with the greatest amount of invective occurred in an entirely separate post (http://introiboadaltaredei2.blogspot.com/2020/10/when-strangers-come-knocking-part-14.html), wherein my *very first comment* made on the thread in question started with a general condemnation of the rhetoric (since there were other Anons other than you and Lee, some of whom DID speak up in your defense in all fairness), followed by a specific citation directed towards you regarding a study about masks and their effectiveness.
(The following points are made under the assumption that you weren’t the Anonymous poster debating Lee over the past week in the comments for this post. Given that the Anonymous poster didn't identify themselves, I didn't think they were you, especially when they appeared to dispute the other Anonymous poster’s claim that they were JoAnn in a comment on 12/4 @ 11:27 AM. For point of reference, your very first comment in this post positively identifying yourself was on 12/7, while the back-and-forth about COVID began on 12/3.)
2) First of all: I think you may have overestimated my station here. I'm just a guest poster and fellow commenter; I have no moderator ability, and no power to block or delete comments; that's all on Introibo's side regarding the authorization of comments (and based on the above he's already made his own apology regarding his prior decision to err on the side of no censorship with regards to comments). Beyond providing material for Introibo to post when he needs a break, I have just as much control over this comment section as you do, which would be nothing beyond my ability to persuade people.
3) After Lee posted Verecchio's article, an Anon took issue with the 'scam' terminology used therein on 12/3 @1:03 PM; after one Anon and ‘Spock’ replied (with no harsh rhetoric used), Lee then replied with various citations on 12/3 @7:28 PM as to why he thinks the response is a scam (making the clear distinction that the virus is real but the media narrative is not).
Then, on a thread further down on 12/4 @4:42 AM, the same Anon accused Lee of personally believing the virus is a scam, that he didn’t care about people dying, that he was a hypocrite, lacked empathy, a conspiracy theorist, etc. Quite frankly, this is far worse than being called crass names like ‘idiot’, ‘moron’, etc. At that point, Lee and other Anons retaliated over the course of a short period of time. By the time my response finally cleared, I once again made a general condemnation of the rhetoric, while specifically calling out the Anon for bad faith arguing.
4) With regards to the Karen term, in *my* experience, it’s been used as shorthand to describe a type of behavior that demands actions be taken which are beyond proportionate to a situation at hand, and that’s an entirely fair observation to make in my opinion. (Though it appears there are other connotations depending on what part of the Internet you’re on, so that’s my error.) However, with regards to the “watch your back” line, the Anon was explicitly referring to the kind of people shown in the video which they linked to (wherein a guy *spit* on a woman because she wasn’t wearing a mask). Beyond equating you to a Karen (who I wouldn’t necessarily need to watch my back around), I didn’t think he was lumping you in with the type of person shown on the video (who I most definitely WOULD watch my back around).
Sincerely,
A Simple Man
ASM,
Delete"As regards to the Karen term, in *my* experience, it’s been used as shorthand to describe a type of behavior that demands actions be taken which are beyond proportionate to a situation at hand, and that’s an entirely fair observation to make in my opinion."
Are you saying that I am a "Karen"? A yes or no answer will suffice.
JoAnn
JoAnn,
DeleteAs far as COVID-19 goes (and *only* that far):
- Given your disclosed positions being in favor of mask mandates and lockdowns (at least as far as I'm aware from your prior comments), and
- Given that such mandates and lockdowns are wildly out of proportion as a response to COVID-19 in light of the available evidence (regarding not only its lethality, but also the dubious statistical methodology used to track it, as well as the damage caused by these lockdowns being greater in the aggregate),
then the answer would be an unequivocal 'yes', in the sense I gave of the word.
Now in all fairness, you would be well within your rights to argue that I'm being reckless, cavalier, or even foolhardy, and I wouldn't begrudge you for that in the least.
I just happen to believe that the evidence favors my position more. Nothing more, and nothing less.
Sincerely,
A Simple Man
A Simple Man,
DeleteThank you for the "yes or no" answer. I admire your brevity.(Lol) It is disappointing that this blog disparages freedom of discourse. Civility would be an upgrade as well as humility by those monitoring the blog.
JoAnn
A/K/A Karen
JoAnn,
DeleteGiven the different connotations regarding 'Karen' that I've recently learned (some of which are nowhere near as flattering as how I understood it), I wanted to be clear as to my meaning.
With regards to freedom of discourse, Introibo has previously been very open regarding comments on this blog, in that only explicitly blasphemous or extremely vulgar comments were blocked. Pushing for an increase of civility and humility from everyone involved (which I agree with) would necessarily result in a lower freedom of discourse. After all, freedom is not the same thing as licentiousness.
May God's blessings be with you.
Sincerely,
A Simple Man
Joann,
DeleteI am "those" who monitor this blog. "Disparage freedom of discourse"? Seriously? I err on the side of freedom to speak. I do not permit vulgarity or blasphemy, and I have been a bit too lax for those who can't speak their minds charitably. Humility? I apologized more than once and accepted fraternal correction from another commenter.
I give of my time (what little is left) answering comments, questions, etc. I go above and beyond what most other bloggers (religious or otherwise) do, and all pro bono. I even give advice to those who ask to contact me outside this blog via anonymous email.
During the ten years I've been operating this blog, I have been sent some comments that were so vulgar and insulting they cannot be repeated and obviously were not published. What you experienced does not even come close; yet When you speak out on controversial topics, that's to be expected. As a NYC lawyer, I'm used to being called every name in the book, and it rolls off my back. I chose to operate this blog, so I have to expect some bad-willed people name-calling.
That having been said, 99% of my readers are wonderful people. That includes Lee, Simple Man, and countless anonymous commenters. Sometimes the best will get passionate about what they write and it doesn't come off as charitable, even though they are charitable people. I have been guilty of the same.
I'm proud of what God has accomplished through my blog, and I pray for all my readers; they are great people living in tough times.
I do the best I can by the Grace of God. If that is not enough for anyone, no one is required to comment. I cannot be held responsible as some "Censor Librorum" for comments that someone may not like. I want the free and open exchange of ideas--albeit with charity.
That's the bottom line. Anyone who doesn't like it is not forced to comment.
---Introibo
The "freedom of discourse" I am referring to is the disparaging by the majority of anyone who disagrees with said majority's personal opinions and the subsequent name branding thereof by said majority of the minority. "Civility would be an upgrade" by said majority if the name branding could cease. "Humility" is a virtue we all could and should partake and participate in and aspire to. I hope this clarifies my above comment. I am not a writer or a lawyer, but was trying to keep my reply brief and in so doing evidently offended Introibo which was not my intent. No one likes to be mischarcterized, misunderstood, name called or name branded. My apologizes and I hope the point is therefore moot at this juncture.
DeleteJoAnn
ASM,
ReplyDeleteMississippi is also a state which doesn't allow religious or medical exemption from vaccines. So if the vaccine is required to work, shop, or whatever, would you obey and take it if you lived in that state? Or will you disobey because you refuse to take an inoculation that could possibly injure or track you and on top of that have ingredients derived from aborted babies?
Lee
Lee,
DeleteI refer you to my post at "December 1, 2020 at 9:34 AM" further above.
There would have to be a **severe** change in the legislative and societal landscape for it to get to the point where having a vaccine (of dubious efficacy and origins, mind you) becomes a requirement to merely exist.
If that ever becomes the case writ large, I imagine the civil situation in America will by that point have degraded to a new low, at which point the paradigms of lawful civil governance will need to be re-evaluated.
Sincerely,
A Simple Man
ASM,
ReplyDeleteAlso consider how the Novus Ordo Church succeeded against the Catholic Church. It was because of obedience. People were taught to be obedient to lawful authority, which you are supposed to do, but because of this reason, the enemies (infiltrators) took over the Church and now look at it. Most bishops and priests loved Vatican II and if they didn't they ended up tolerating it out of obedience for the exception of those heroes (and we know who they are) that didn't. What if we didn't have a Fr. Gomar de Paul, Archbishop Thuc, etc.? We would be screwed and the Church would not have any more sacraments ever again and it would be game over.
Pope St. Gregory the Great taught in his Moralium:
"Know that evil ought never to be done by way of obedience, though sometimes something good, which is being done, ought to be discontinued out of obedience."
Pope Benedict XIV said in his treatise on heroic virtue:
"A superior is not to be obeyed when he commands anything contrary to divine law, Nor is an abbot to be obeyed when he commands anything contrary to the rule, according to the well-know letter of St. Bernard to monk Adam. A blind obedience excludes the prudence of the flesh, not the prudence of the spirit as is shown at length by Suarez."
Also Fr Vincent McNabb stated,
"Some higher person or law must authorize and control all created authority whether individual or collective...From this follows the momentous principle, which we may enunciate thus: NO AUTHORITY HAS THE RIGHT TO COMMAND UNLESS IN COMMANDING IT IS ITSELF OBEYING."
Right now we know what Covid is all about and it's not our health. If it was the governors, mayors, celebs, journalist etc. wouldn't be livin it up while telling us to do the opposite. It's about control, not our health. The WHO and CDC wouldn't be changing their minds constantly either. Therefore, we don't have to obey nor should we, but fight against the lies. It's a sin to tolerate lies especially when it's affecting your own life.
Lee
Lee,
DeleteYour point regarding Vatican II is well made, and it was a lamentable decision by the majority of the prelates to follow along out of a sense of obedience. However, said obedience was objectively misapplied.
With regards to ecclesial authority versus civil authority, the former has a distinct advantage compared to the latter from the layman's perspective: namely, that we know by virtue of divine law and the teaching of the Church that non-Catholics cannot hold ecclesial power, and thus cannot lawfully command obedience in religious matters.
As such, once a member of the clergy has betrayed themselves to be a public and manifest heretic or apostate or schismatic, then they are objectively bereft of ecclesial authority and as such cannot lawfully command our obedience, as was the case of those who refused to obey Arius for his heterodox preaching long before he was ever solemnly condemned by a council.
The situation with mere civil authority - wherein we are beholden to obey even non-Christian rulers within their spheres of authority - is not so clean-cut, as history as proven.
That being said, I am in agreement with you with regards to *lawful* resistance, insofar as it can be shown that the authorities are acting in an unjust and unlawful manner (which in many cases can be proven), or are objectively harming the common good (especially if done on false pretenses), per the principles laid out by St. Thomas Aquinas at the very least.
And should the worst come to pass, we must be prepared to suffer for it, if necessary.
Sincerely,
A Simple Man
Lee,
DeleteI don't understand your opposition to what ASM has been saying, nor to the concept of obedience to our superiors in all matters that do not merit lawful resistance.
ASM is not in favor of the COVID hysteria, nor is he in favor of a blind, slavelike submission to clearly evil rules and commands, as he has demonstrated tactfully and eloquently time and again in these threads.
We are clearly living in some squalid times, with immorality, insanity, and evil daily on the rise. I don't think anyone here would dispute that, certainly not ASM. All he has done is bring to our attention Church teachings on obedience to lawful authority, as well as the scope of the authority and the principles to determine when they overstep their boundaries.
I don't see why there must be so much controversy over it.
neyoriquans,
DeleteDo you obey any sedevacantist bishops or priests? If so, which ones? All of them perhaps? If there are some who you don't, then why not?
Lee
Given the lack of ordinary jurisdiction, strictly speaking no layman is under the obligation of obedience to any ecclesiastical outside the commands and dictates of natural and Ecclesiastical law, as I understand it. Despite this, out of respect for the clergy, I choose to obey out of charity my local parish priests, and by extension our Bishop, Bishop Morello.
DeleteBut again, this is a question on Ecclesiastical authority. There is no need to conflate obedience in this realm with obedience in the secular realm, seeing as ASM has already on a few occasions outlined the differences between those two spheres of authority and how the principles of obedience differ between them.
neyoriquans,
DeleteFair enough. BTW, I didn't have a debate with ASM. Just asked him a few questions and gave my comments as to how to apply obedience in today's time. It was an Anonymous person which didn't like my stance on Covid and who attacked me for it and I defended myself. It was nice to see other people on here as frustrated as I am with that and I appreciate their comments in support of me.
Lee
I see, I apologize if I came off as too combative as well. Tone is quite difficult to convey through text. I value your comments here and elsewhere throughout the Sede internet spheres. With all that has been going on in these threads for this post however, it has been rather hard to keep track of everyone's comments.
DeleteThis COVID situation is becoming more grave by the day; it seems as if the forces that be are hell-bent on pushing forward this great reset and ushering in the age of Antichrist. Many prayers and penances will need to be performed by us to get through the trials and tribulations to come no doubt.
Have a blessed Advent my friend, and many blessings to stay safe and free in the dark days ahead!
ASM,
ReplyDeleteI's it ever ok to lie?
To anon@8:49 PM,
DeleteI refer you to Question 110 of the Second Part of the Second Part of the Summa Theologia by St. Thomas Aquinas, titled "The vices opposed to truth, and first of lying": https://www.newadvent.org/summa/3110.htm
To summarize his arguments relative to your question in particular:
- By its very nature of being contrary to truth, the act of telling a lie is sinful.
- However, not every lie can be classified as a *mortal* sin, based on the classifications he uses to differentiate lies, as follows:
** By its nature as a lie (going beyond the truth, or falling short of the truth, labelled as boasting and irony respectively; these divisions deal with the essence of the lie itself)
** By its nature as a sin, as follows:
**** Mischievous lies - intended to injure another - increase the gravity of their sinfulness
****** The gravity of mischievous lies is further aggravated depending on who the liar intends to injure, whether it be against God, against religious doctrine, or against man (in order from most to least grievous); furthermore, for the lies which are against man, it is considered worse to lie solely to injure someone, than to lie for the sake of injuring someone while at the same time intending another to profit from your lie.
****** In addition to the above, there is also the case of one who lies compulsively, out of habit; this is also considered mischievous, due to having a delight in lying by nature of the fact that the habit exists.
**** Jocose lies – intended to delight or increase the pleasure of another – lessen the gravity of the sin, as its motive is not to cause injury.
**** Officious lies – intended to be useful or to help another person – lessen the gravity of the sin even further, as follows:
****** For the sake of external things, such as lying to help someone with regards to their finances;
****** For the sake of their body, such as lying to help someone with regards to their health, or to save them from death
****** For the sake of their virtue, such as lying to convince someone not to commit an immoral action.
To summarize: although lying is an inherently sinful act, it can be classified as mortal or venial. In general, the greater the good intended by the lie, the more its offense as a sin is diminished; in like manner, the greater the evil intended, the more its offense as a sin increases.
Sincerely,
A Simple Man
I am another anon.
DeleteIf I were given a question by a terrorist, and if I told "x" (the truth), thousands of people will die, but if I lie and say "y", I will save all of them,
But:
A. If I keep quiet or say neither, 50% chance the terrorist may pick x, that is, the one that will kill thousands
B. On a worse scenario, the terrorist knows that if I pick neither or keep quiet, it means that he will know "x" is true, thus, thousands will die for certain if I don't lie and say "y".
In those scenarios, would it really be sinful to lie?
To anon@6:20 AM,
DeleteI think any prudent answer to this hypothetical question can't be made without an understanding of what "x" and "y" are, since the nature of the lie has ramifications (for example, what if they ask you to deny Christ?) Plus, there are additional considerations:
- How do you know these terrorists have the capacity to do what they say they will do of you don't comply? Do you have knowledge beyond mere suspicion that they have the capacity to carry out their threats?
- For that matter, who is the person being told to lie by the terrorist in this scenario? Is it a layman of no particular significance (materially or politically speaking), or someone with sufficient authority that their answers and actions actually can affect lives in the thousands?
There's too much ambiguity to give an all-encompassing answer.
That being said, the general principles laid down by St. Thomas Aquinas are clear: a lie by its very nature is sinful. However, the gravity of the sin's offense is increased or decreased based on the intent and circumstances behind it.
Sincerely,
A Simple Man
(Forgive any typos in the prior post. Typing on a phone makes for difficult spell-checking.)
DeleteJust so we can get the specific words of St. Thomas Aquinas, in response to the question 'Whether every lie is a sin?', he answers: " An action that is naturally evil in respect of its genus can by no means be good and lawful, since in order for an action to be good it must be right in every respect: because good results from a complete cause, while evil results from any single defect, as Dionysius asserts (Div. Nom. iv). Now a lie is evil in respect of its genus, since it is an action bearing on undue matter. For as words are naturally signs of intellectual acts, it is unnatural and undue for anyone to signify by words something that is not in his mind. Hence the Philosopher says (Ethic. iv, 7) that "lying is in itself evil and to be shunned, while truthfulness is good and worthy of praise." Therefore every lie is a sin, as also Augustine declares (Contra Mend. i). " - ST II-II, q. 110, a. 3
Article 4 of the same question elaborates as to whether every lie is a mortal sin, to which the Angelic Doctor answers in the negative, proceeding to explain the classifications I summarized previously.
Sincerely,
A Simple Man
Thank you ASM.
DeleteNever mind the question, your second comment answered my question, thank you.
Get ready to put the 2nd Amendment into action. We will not tolerate this tyranny! These traitors have no authority. To hell with Francis's support of the tyranny and covid hoax! That alone should prove who's on the right and wrong side of things. Antichrists are everywhere with their lies and theft of everything good and righteous.
ReplyDeleteTo My Readers,
ReplyDeleteA public thank you to Simple Man for his great post and answering all so diligently! He will be back again from time to time, as I stated at the beginning of this post.
Glad he's on board!
---Introibo
Hear hear!
DeleteTo all readers,
ReplyDeleteGiven the discussion regarding vaccinations within the past week, it seems prescient that Novus Ordo Watch has sponsored a podcast from True Restoration on the subject of vaccines and their morality:
https://novusordowatch.org/2020/12/the-morality-of-vaccinations/
I have not yet listened to it yet myself, but given that (A) it is presented by Fr. Stephen McKenna (ordained by Bp. Daniel Dolan and associated with the sedevacantist apostolate St. Gertude the Great), and (B) its primary source material appears to be the 1958 Moral Theology book by the Dominicans McHugh and Callan (which Introibo has often referenced on this blog), it is reasonable to assume that the presentation is based on sound Catholic principles.
Sincerely,
A Simple Man