Monday, June 29, 2015

The "Vatican II Feeneyites" Attempt To Defend The Indefensible

In my last post of June 22, 2015, I took to task those Feeneyites who not only deny Baptism of Desire (BOD) and Baptism of Blood (BOB), but also affirm the validity of Vatican II and its "popes." I mentioned the blog of one such person, Mr. Lionel Andrades, who operates Eucharist and Mission (EAM). Mr. Andrades contacted me via Twitter, objecting to what I wrote. I challenged him to a debate which he graciously accepted. On June 25th, he put up several posts, all aimed at refuting my arguments. I will now reproduce what he wrote and provide answers. His writing, in my opinion, is hard to follow (as is his line of reasoning at many points). To make it easier for my readers, EAM reproduced what I wrote and then responded. To prevent you from bouncing back and forth between websites, I will reproduce anything which I originally wrote in blue. What he wrote will be normal color, and my counter-responses will be in red. I have answered all his major contentions. 

I apologize for the rather long post. However, exposing and refuting the attacks against the One True Faith is something we must do to the best of our ability in this age of near universal apostasy. At the bottom of the Feeneyite heresy stands a rejection to accept Church teaching unless it is dogmatically defined by the Extraordinary Magisterium. This contention was itself explicitly condemned by the Church as part of the great Syllabus of Errors in 1864. You will also see the poor reasoning, strange premises, and lack of understanding of the doctrines of BOD and BOB on the part of the Feenyites; especially those who also accept Vatican II and Mr. "Atheists Can Go To Heaven" Bergoglio. N.B. "EENS" refers to the dogma "Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus" ("Outside the Church There is No Salvation") Let's begin:

The blog's owner, one Lionel Andrades, is representative of a peculiar ideological opinion: he adheres to the Vatican II sect 

Yes to the mainline Catholic Church which accepts Pope Francis.

Herein lies the biggest problem, even bigger than Feeneyism, the acceptance of Vatican II and the post-Vatican II "popes."

Here are just two theologians:
St. Robert Bellarmine (1610) “A pope who is a manifest heretic automatically (per se) ceases to be pope and head, just as he ceases automatically to be a Christian and a member of the Church. Wherefore, he can be judged and punished by the Church. This is the teaching of all the ancient Fathers who teach that manifest heretics immediately lose all jurisdiction.” De Romano Pontifice. II.30.
St. Alphonsus Liguori (†1787) “If ever a pope, as a private person, should fall into heresy, he would at once fall from the pontificate.” Oeuvres Compl├Ętes. 9:232
 For a complete list of pre-Vatican II theologians (as well as canon law citations) on loss of papal office, please see Traditionalists, Infallibility, and The Pope by Fr. Cekada at
Are the post-Vatican II "popes" guilty of heresy? Let's examine just two points on a list that seemingly expands daily.

  •  Justification: The October 31, 1999 Joint Declaration on Justification , approved by Ratzinger (later Benedict XVI) and Wotyla (John Paul II).

This overthrows the solemn dogmatic definitions of the Council of Trent concerning justification.

  • The Church: The Declaration on Communion, the Ecumenical Directory and the Declaration Dominus Jesus, written by Ratzinger (later Benedict) and approved by John Paul II.

These documents promote the “Subsistent Superchurch” heresy, which, among other things, denies an article of the Creed (“I believe in one Church”), as well as the proposition “outside the Church there is no salvation.” ("EENS" as explained above).

The former is “an article of the divine and Catholic faith,” the latter a “dogma of the faith.” (Salaverri 1:1095, 1153)--Thanks again to Fr. Cekada for resources available to all.

According to the communities of Fr.Leonard Feeney they do not deny the baptism of desire or blood. They simply say that it will be followed with the baptism of water in the Catholic Church in a manner known only to God.

As for me, Lionel Andrades, I simply say that we do not know any case of BOD or BOB in the present times and so they are not exceptions to the dogma. Introibo Ad Altare Dei (IAAD) agrees with me on this point on Twitter.He has said BOB and BOD are not exceptions to EENS.
Wrong. The Feeneyites deny that BOD or BOB alone will suffice in extraordinary cases. They deny the teaching of the unanimous consent of the theologians as well as the 1917 Code of Canon Law on the subject making them heretics. There is no support for any novel claim that God will always supply water and an administer for the sacrament of Baptism. The next point is tricky. BOD and BOB are NOT exceptions to EENS. He is correct, and that is what the Church teaches. However, the whole point of "we do not know any case of BOD.." is confusing. Is he trying to insinuate that you can state a heresy, and if there's no proof of it happening, it's not a heresy?? For example, If I say "Christ COULD commit sin" that's not heresy because we know of no examples of Our Lord committing sin?
Just the assertion that the All-Perfect God-Man could hypothetically commit sin, is a grievous heresy as it is absolutely impossible for Christ to sin. God is All Good and cannot act against His Divine Nature. Likewise, to state that BOD and BOB are not exceptions-- because we don't know of anyone saved by them is both illogical and heretical. Should God tell us the name of someone in 2015 who died saved by BOD or BOB, we still would not have an "exception" to EENS because he died AS A CATHOLIC just prior to the moment of death!

Feeneyism (there are no known exceptions to the dogma, so there are no exceptions for us human beings) is compatible with Vatican Council II ( when it is not assumed that there are known exceptions to the dogma).Sedevacantists accept VC2 assuming there are known exceptions to EENs mentioned in VC 2.Then VC2 becomes incompatible.

Wrong again. Here are his repeated ramblings about known exceptions. (His emphasis). Well, would he like to know an "exception"? The Roman Breviary states: "Emerantiana, a Roman virgin, step-sister of the blessed Agnes, while she was still a catechumen, burning with faith and charity, when she vehemently rebuked idol-worshippers who were stealing from Christians, was stoned and struck down by the crowd which she had angered. Praying in her agony at the tomb of holy Agnes, baptized by her own blood which she poured forth unflinchingly for Christ, she gave up her soul to God."

SAINT Emerantiana was baptized in her own blood (BOB). To say BOB is heretical is to say the Church teaches error since the liturgy proclaims it. However, we know that the Church is infallible in such matters. It would mean the Church proclaimed as a saint someone who, according to the Feeneyites, shouldn't be there because she did not receive the Sacrament of Baptism. I really don't know why else he would harp on "we don't know anyone" in Heaven as a result of BOD and BOB, unless trying to claim that BOD and BOB are "exceptions" to EENS if we know of someone who has gone to Heaven as a result of either extraordinary way. Since BOD and BOB are NOT exceptions to the dogma EENS, it doesn't matter if we know someone who is in Heaven as a result of this miracle of Grace.

The new and heretical ecclesiology of Vatican II found in Lumen Gentium teaches that the Church of Christ "subsists in" (not "is") the Roman Catholic Church

It does not for me. Pope Benedict XVI clarified this.So it is IAAD' personal view here.
For me Ad Gentes 7 is clear. It supports EENS.

Wrong yet again! (Do you notice a certain pattern beginning to appear?).
As to Ratzinger's Dominus Iesus of 2000, which allegedly "clarified" Lumen Gentium (What Ecumenical Council Document ever needed "clarification" over 30 years after the fact? Modernists speak in ambiguities!!) Bp. Sanborn writes:

"Dominus Iesus:"Therefore there exists a single Church of Christ, which subsists in the Catholic Church, governed by the Successor of Peter and by the Bishops in communion with him. The Churches which, while not existing in perfect communion with the Catholic Church, remain united with her by means of the closest bonds, that is, by apostolic succession and a valid Eucharist, are true particular Churches." (no. 17)
Qualification: HERETICAL.
This statement is the logical conclusion of the previous statement. It merely says that the schismatics and heretics who have broken off from the Roman Catholic Church form parts of the Church of Christ. They are other branches. It is heretical for the same reason that the "subsistit in" is heretical. It completely alters the nature of the Church of Christ, and places a distinction between the Church of Christ and the Roman Catholic Church.
 It should also be pointed out here that the schismatics and heretics who have left the true Church of Christ, the Roman Catholic Church, are not "Churches" at all. As "Churches." they do not even exist. For who gave them existence? God? Of course not. Human beings? Yes, schismatics and/or heretics. But human beings cannot beget "Churches" any more than they can make gold out of iron. All that they can come up with are phony substitutes for the real Church.
 The true term for these so-called "Churches" would be bands of heretics or groupings of schismatics, for that is all they are. They do not have any legitimate ecclesiastical life, charter, or structure. They are nothing. They are cadavers.

Dominus Iesus:"Therefore, the Church of Christ is present and operative also in these Churches, even though they lack full communion with the Catholic Church, since they do not accept the Catholic doctrine of the Primacy, which, according to the will of God, the Bishop of Rome objectively has and exercises over the entire Church." (no. 17)


 This text more explicitly draws the conclusion of the original error of Lumen Gentium. It extends the Church of Christ beyond the borders of the Roman Catholic Church, and gives legitimacy to non-Catholic sects. It also makes submission to the Roman Pontiff, as well as belief in the primacy of the Roman Pontiff, accidental to being a part of the Church of Christ.

 This is explicit heresy. The Church of Christ is present and operative in these "Churches" even though they reject the authority of the Roman Pontiff. But this is contrary to the teaching of the Roman Catholic Church. The Church teaches that Christ and the Pope constitute a single hierarchical authority. Pope Pius XII states in Mystici Corporis (no. 40):

"That Christ and His Vicar constitute one only Head is the solemn teaching of Our predecessor of immortal memory Boniface VIII in the Apostolic Letter Unam Sanctam; and his successors have never ceased to repeat the same."

It follows, then, that those who are cut off from the Pope are also cut off from Christ. For this reason Pope Pius XII, also in Mystici Corporis (no. 22) said:
"As therefore in the true Christian community there is only one Body, one Spirit, one Lord, and one Baptism, so there can be only one faith. And therefore if a man refuse to hear the Church let him be considered - so the Lord commands - as a heathen and a publican. It follows that those who are divided in faith or government cannot be living in the unity of such a Body."
Ratzinger's new document Dominus Iesus is merely a dull rehash of previous documents. There is no condemnation of religious indifferentism, but rather there are explicit declarations of principles which themselves constitute religious indifferentism. For if the Church of Christ is present with all of its essential elements in heretical and schismatic sects, and if they are used by the Spirit of Christ as a means of salvation, then what else do you need? The only thing left is degree or perfection of being the Church of Christ and a means of salvation. This is precisely what Wojtyla and Ratzinger assert: that the Catholic Church has the fullness of truth and of the means of salvation, whereas the others have only a partial serving of these things. Their lack does not prevent them, however, from being members of the Church of Christ.
So with demonic cunning, Wojtyla and Ratzinger are able to say, "All religions are not equal," because the Catholic Church has the fullness, and the others only have parts. No, not all are equal, but they are all more or less good, and beyond that, in the schismatic sects one finds the Church of Christ, and a means of salvation. Furthermore the Protestants are members of the Church of Christ. This is asserted about these sects, even though they all adhere to schism and heresy.
But that all religions are more or less good is the very error condemned by Pope Pius XI in Mortalium Animos:
"Certainly such attempts can nowise be approved by Catholics, founded as they are on that false opinion which considers all religions to be more or less good and praiseworthy, since they all in different ways manifest and signify that sense which is inborn in us all, and by which we are led to God and to the obedient acknowledgement of His rule. Not only are those who hold this opinion in error and deceived, but also in distorting the idea of true religion they reject it, and little by little, turn aside to naturalism and atheism, as it is called; from which it clearly follows that one who supports those who hold these theories and attempt to realize them, is altogether abandoning the divinely revealed religion." [Emphasis added].
St. Pius X condemned the same doctrine in his encyclical Pascendi,  which condemned the Modernists:
"In the conflict between different religions, the most that Modernists can maintain is that the Catholic has more truth because it is more vivid, and that it deserves with more reason the name of Christian because it corresponds more fully with the origins of Christianity. No one will find it unreasonable that these consequences flow from the premises."
Thus the two old deceivers have done it again. Wojtyla and Ratzinger have published bold-faced heresy under the headlines of "conservatism" and "defending the Faith." The Novus Ordo conservatives eat it up. It is just one more spoonful of the spoon-fed heresy and apostasy which we have been receiving since the 1960's.
Ratzinger's doctrine is novelty. It is heresy. It leads to apostasy. It is given to us as a preparation for a World Church. By this document Wojtyla and Ratzinger have dispensed with the necessity both to assent to all Catholic dogmas and to be submitted to the Pope as essential conditions for being members of the Church of Christ."
I couldn't have said it any better! Thank you Bp. Sanborn!!

1. BOD and BOB are nothing more than the extraordinary application of the dogma EENS in extraordinary circumstances. They are not exceptions to EENS, and it matters not one iota whether we know of anyone today who was saved by such miraculous means. 
2. The Catholic Faith and Sacramental Baptism are the normal way to enter the Church, Outside of Which There is No Salvation 
3. In extraordinary circumstances BOD and BOB are used by God to save souls apart from baptism by water.
4. BOD is a miracle performed by God on adults who live open to God's grace, follow their consciences, have perfect contrition, and are infused with the True Faith and Sanctifying Grace just prior to death.
5. BOB is the doctrine that someone who sheds his blood for Christ wanting to be united to the Roman Catholic Church will likewise be saved.
6. There are known Catholic saints who were saved by BOB.
7. BOD and BOB are taught by the universal and Ordinary Magisterium of the Church and must be believed. If you reject them, you are a heretic!
8. Vatican II taught heresy regarding the nature of the Church (ecclesiology). It teaches that groups of heretics can be "churches" that may be used by Christ as a "means of salvation." The fact that the Vatican II sect doesn't claim to know a specific individual who was saved in this manner is theologically irrelevant. They will never know a case because it is false! However, the mere assertion that it can happen is heresy because it is untrue and teaches error about the very nature of the Church.
9. The post-Vatican II popes lost their office by heresy, as the Church teaches. As a matter of fact, Jorge Bergoglio never even attained to the papacy. Not only is he an invalidly ordained priest and invalidly consecrated bishop (i.e. a layman who cannot be Bishop of Rome), he was a professed heretic which is a DIVINE impediment to being pope.
10. Vatican II will allow for the heresy of Feeney and for universal salvation. The only thing they won't tolerate is the Integral Catholic Faith.

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