Monday, April 22, 2019

Look Who's Talking


 "Dialogue" has become the code word in the Vatican II sect for capitulating to every heretic, schismatic, infidel and pagan on Earth. It's not about converting those in error because "proselytism is solemn nonsense." The word dialogue sounds like some "open-minded" and unobjectionable discussion about faith, when it's really something sinister driven by the false ecumenical ecclesiology of Vatican II. I hear members of the Vatican II sect tell me that there's going to be some "interfaith meeting" at their parish, where they will have a dialogue with the local Protestant minister, rabbi, imam, etc. It turns out to be little more than an attempt to further the agenda of a One World Religion where everything is accepted but the truth. This post will explore the teaching of the True Church on "dialogue," and how the newly spawned sect of the Robber Council introduced the idea in furtherance of their nefarious goal.

Montini and Ecclesiam Suam

 The first impetus towards dialogue with false sects came when Montini ("St." "Pope" Paul VI) issued his encyclical Ecclesiam Suam on August 6, 1964, a mere three and a half months before he would sign the first heretical document of the Council, Lumen Gentium.  The encyclical is a striking departure from those of the true popes:

  • It is certainly not Our wish to disrupt the work of the council in this simple, conversational letter of Ours, but rather to commend it and to stimulate it. (para. #6) Since when do real popes promulgate "conversational letters"?
  • The purpose of this exhortation of Ours is not to lend substance to the belief that perfection consists in rigidly adhering to the methods adopted by the Church in the past and refusing to countenance the practical measures commonly thought to be in accord with the character of our time. These measures can be put to the test. We cannot forget Pope John XXIII's word aggiornamento which We have adopted as expressing the aim and object of Our own pontificate. Besides ratifying it and confirming it as the guiding principle of the Ecumenical Council, We want to bring it to the notice of the whole Church (para. #50; Emphasis mine) The methods of prayer and worship, and even the rule of Faith, which has produced countless saints is now considered "outdated." They must be replaced. 
  • The Church must enter into dialogue with the world in which it lives. It has something to say, a message to give, a communication to make.(para. #65) What communication would that be? Hint: It's not "repent, convert, and be saved." 
  • We see the concrete situation very clearly, and might sum it up in general terms by describing it in a series of concentric circles around the central point at which God has placed us.(para. # 96) More Modernist claptrap. The next section describes what he really means

  • It comprises first of all those men who worship the one supreme God, whom we also worship. We would mention first the Jewish people, who still retain the religion of the Old Testament, and who are indeed worthy of our respect and love.Then we have those worshipers who adhere to other monotheistic systems of religion, especially the Moslem religion. We do well to admire these people for all that is good and true in their worship of God. And finally we have the followers of the great Afro-Asiatic religions. (para. #107; Emphasis mine) Jews cannot "retain" what no longer exists; the Old Covenant is over since the death of Christ. What is there to "admire" in Islam? There is nothing "good and true" in worshiping their false moon "god," Allah. Finally, we have the pagans of Africa and Asia (Hindus, Animists, Buddhists, etc.) What is good or even "great" about them? Nothing. "St." Montini adds this sop at the end of para. #107 to maintain a veneer of orthodoxy: Obviously we cannot agree with these various forms of religion, nor can we adopt an indifferent or uncritical attitude toward them on the assumption that they are all to be regarded as on an equal footing, and that there is no need for those who profess them to enquire whether or not God has Himself revealed definitively and infallibly how He wishes to be known, loved, and served. Indeed, honesty compels us to declare openly our conviction that the Christian religion is the one and only true religion, and it is our hope that it will be acknowledged as such by all who look for God and worship Him. Got that? He makes several heretical statements and hopes to cover them up. The proof that this is the case is borne out by the heretical documents of Vatican II he signed, and which lay waste to any pretense of orthodox teaching.
Vatican II and their "Dogma" of Ecumenism and Dialogue

 Here's what Unitatis Redintegratio, para. #9 has to say: 
Catholics who already have a proper grounding need to acquire a more adequate understanding of the respective doctrines of our separated brethren, their history, their spiritual and liturgical life, their religious psychology and cultural background. Most valuable for this purpose are meetings of the two sides - especially for discussion of theological problems - where each can treat with the other on an equal footing, providing that those who take part in them under the guidance of the authorities are truly competent. (Emphasis mine)

Consider: By entering into a discussion with anyone else on an equal footing, one renounces any claim to authority superior to the authority of the other party. Otherwise the footing simply would not be equal. The True Church cannot recommend Catholics, even the most learned, to engage in theological discussion with Protestants unless they are ready to concede their religion to be false. For a Catholic to enter into dialogue with Protestants on an equal footing, it would be necessary for the Catholic to openly and willfully call into doubt the Truths of Faith which are Divinely guaranteed. This is simply wicked. Vatican II requires those in dialogue to deny the Divine obligation to profess the One True Faith and the necessity for all heretics to submit to the Church.

Pope Pius XI teaches: "...although many non-Catholics may be found who loudly preach fraternal communion in Christ Jesus, yet you will find none at all to whom it ever occurs to submit to and obey the Vicar of Jesus Christ either in His capacity as a teacher or as a governor. Meanwhile they affirm that they would willingly treat with the Church of Rome, but on equal terms, that is as equals with an equal: but even if they could so act. it does not seem open to doubt that any pact into which they might enter would not compel them to turn from those opinions which are still the reason why they err and stray from the one fold of Christ...This being so, it is clear that the Apostolic See cannot on any terms take part in their assemblies, nor is it anyway lawful for Catholics either to support or to work for such enterprises; for if they do so they will be giving countenance to a false Christianity, quite alien to the one Church of Christ." (Mortalium Animos, para. #7 and 8; Emphasis mine)

Again, we read more heresy in the Vatican II document Gaudiam et Spes: 
Through loyalty to conscience, Christians are joined to other men in the search for truth and for the right solution to so many moral problems which arise both in the life of individuals and from social relationships.(para. #16) 

Any Catholic who needs to go "search for truth" with heretics, apostates, pagans, etc, has either lost their Faith or their marbles (probably both). I'm also being generous, because the appellation of "Christian" rightfully only belongs to members of the One True Church.  Vatican II elsewhere (erroneously) attributed to baptized heretics and schismatics a strict right to the name of Christian without qualification. 

In para. #21 of Gaudiam et Spes, we are told that Catholics must dialogue with atheists to bring about a "right order" in the world. (No wonder Bergoglio tells us, "Atheists can go to Heaven.")
Although the Church altogether rejects atheism, she nevertheless sincerely proclaims that all men, those who believe as well as those who do not, should help to establish right order in this world, where all live together. This certainly cannot be done without a dialogue that is sincere and prudent.

A few points: World order can only be archived when the world converts to the Church. Those who deny God's existence can in no way contribute to this endeavor. The world (along with the devil and the flesh) is the the enemy of the Church. Christ did not pray for the world, "I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them whom thou hast given me: because they are thine.."(St. John 17:9)

St. Paul tells us, "And all that will live godly in Christ Jesus, shall suffer persecution." (2 Timothy 3:12). Who will persecute them? The world, because there can be no right order in the world, until the world accepts Christ as King. As Pope Pius XI teaches, "The Church alone can introduce into society and maintain therein the prestige of a true, sound spiritualism, the spiritualism of Christianity which both from the point of view of truth and of its practical value is quite superior to any exclusively philosophical theory. The Church is the teacher and an example of world good-will, for she is able to inculcate and develop in mankind the "true spirit of brotherly love" (St. Augustine, De Moribus Ecclesiae Catholicae, i, 30) and by raising the public estimation of the value and dignity of the individual's soul help thereby to lift us even unto God." (Ubi Arcano Dei Consilio, para. #42). 

The True Church Teaches

The 1917 Code of Canon Law teaches in Canon 1325, section 3 that Catholics must guard against participating in debates and conferences with non-Catholics, especially public ones, without the permission of the Holy See or, in an urgent case, of the local Ordinary. (See Canonists Abbo and Hannon, The Sacred Canons, [1951] 2:563). Note this regards even debates on important topics in order to win converts. Still, care must be taken to ensure the Faith is not endangered, or made to look bad in any way. 

On December 20, 1949, the Supreme Sacred Congregation of the Holy Office issued an Instruction on the so-called "ecumenical movement" of its day. Pope Pius XII promulgated it and the seven important contentions that taught "dialogue"--- as later described by Vatican II--- was evil and heretical. 

The Instruction begins by describing: 
However, some of the initiatives that have hitherto been taken by various individuals or groups, with the aim of reconciling dissident Christians to the Catholic Church, although inspired by the best of intentions, are not always based on right principles, or if they are, yet they are not free from special dangers, as experience too has already shown. Hence this Supreme Sacred Congregation, which has the responsibility of conserving in its entirety and protecting the deposit of the faith, has seen fit to recall to mind and to prescribe the following:

This was to make converts, but there were still dangers to the Faith. The Instruction has seven parts, but I will only cite the most pertinent points. Part 1 of the Instruction:
They [bishops] shall also diligently provide whatever may be of service to non-Catholics who desire to know the Catholic faith; they shall designate persons and Offices to which these non-Catholics may go for consultation; and a fortiori they shall see to it that those who are already converted to the faith shall easily find means of more exact and deeper instruction in the Catholic faith, and of leading a more positively religious life, especially through appropriate meetings and group assemblies, through Spiritual Exercises and other works of piety.

Section 2: 
They [bishops] shall also be on guard lest, on the false pretext that more attention should be paid to the points on which we agree than to those on which we differ, a dangerous indifferentism be encouraged, especially among persons whose training in theology is not deep and whose practice of their faith is not very strong. For care must be taken lest, in the so-called "irenic" spirit of today, through comparative study and the vain desire for a progressively closer mutual approach among the various professions of faith, Catholic doctrine---either in its dogmas or in the truths which are connected with them---be so conformed or in a way adapted to the doctrines of dissident sects, that the purity of Catholic doctrine be impaired, or its genuine and certain meaning be obscured.

Also they must restrain that dangerous manner of speaking which generates false opinions and fallacious hopes incapable of realization; for example, to the effect that the teachings of the Encyclicals of the Roman Pontiffs on the return of dissidents to the Church, on the constitution of the Church, on the Mystical Body of Christ, should not be given too much importance seeing that they are not all matters of faith, or, what is worse, that in matters of dogma even the Catholic Church has not yet attained the fullness of Christ, but can still be perfected from outside...Catholic doctrine is to be presented and explained: by no means is it permitted to pass over in silence or to veil in ambiguous terms the Catholic truth regarding the nature and way of justification, the constitution of the Church, the primacy of jurisdiction of the Roman Pontiff, and the only true union by the return of the dissidents to the one true Church of Christ...However, one should not speak of this [the return/conversion to the One True Church] in such a way that they will imagine that in returning to the Church they are bringing to it something substantial which it has hitherto lacked. It will be necessary to say these things clearly and openly, first because it is the truth that they themselves are seeking, and moreover because outside the truth no true union can ever be attained.
(Emphasis mine)
Conclusion
"Dialogue" is the Modernist term for having discussions with those Outside the Church, not for the purpose of conversion, but of "mutual enrichment." It thereby denies the Church is a Perfect Society and unified, whether or not those outside are converted. The Modernists dialogue for "understanding"---as if the Church did not know all Truths of Faith and the heresies which go against them. They dialogue for "making the world a better place" and forget the truth that real peace can only be brought about by universal recognition of Christ as King and  joining His One True Church. However, what they really want to get from dialogue is the acceptance of a dogma-free One World Religion, as everyone begins to compromise their tenets of belief and accept a Masonic-inspired indifferentism. As long as everyone is "good" (according to what standard?) and believes in some vague concept of a "god" (the "Great Architect of the Universe"), all is right with the world. Vatican II dialogue is all (heretical) talk, and no (orthodox) action. 

13 comments:

  1. Interesting, but I'm confused when you quote The 1917 Code of Canon Law Canon 1325, section 3 that "Catholics must guard against participating in debates and conferences with non-Catholics, especially public ones, without the permission of the Holy See or, in an urgent case, of the local Ordinary."

    Does this mean that even today laypeople like you and I need to get permission from a bishop (sede traditional) if we want to debate a non Catholic in public or have a get together where the intention is to convert non Catholics?

    Of course I'm not for dialogue in the Vatican II sense, but I am for trying to help with converting those to the truth of the Catholic Faith. If for some reason I believe the other person (the non-Catholic) may be a little more learned than myself would it be wrong to get a lay person who I think could take him on and possibly win him over or would I need permission from the Church?

    I'm asking this because as much as it sounds reasonable for that time period for permission, it's almost like the liberal modernists clergy used that to their advantage to bring about Vatican II and all its changes if lay people really don't amount to much. When not enough lay people stand up and fight against error we see what happen as we did with the Novus Ordo. In other words I'm against recognition and resistance R&R (SSPX, and home aloners who resist everything etc.) and am totally for real obedience, but I'm wondering is their a distinction that is missing and can you point that out? Thanks Introibo

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    1. You bring out some great observations. The intent of the Canon I cited was to prevent “armchair theologians” from public debates with Protestants who were taught how to misuse the Bible to denigrate the Church. The result would be a public discussion that would drive people away from the Church and make the heretics complacent in their errors.

      The purpose in getting permission would be twofold:
      1. Is the layman qualified?
      2. Is there any danger of communicatio in sacris( praying with heretics, not for them—a mortal sin).

      Please remember that in 1917 there was no dearth of qualified clerics to do the debating. Priests would be sent who were approved theologians (or had at least a licentiate). Non-Catholics usually refused to debate such clerics, as they understood theology better than they did in most cases.

      Today, it would be prudent to seek the advice of a Traditionalist bishop, even though they have no Ordinary jurisdiction. Such debates must be truly necessary (not just a “hobby” or amusement), and there must be no danger of indifferentism.

      Since the requirements of the Canon cannot be fulfilled as stated, only grave necessity would allow it (e.g. to defend the honor of the Church if challenged). and not merely an interest someone pursues.

      God Bless,

      —-Introibo

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    2. Why restrict to seeking advice from a traditional bishop? It's not as if there aren't many traditional priests who are more learned than many of the traditional bishops. Wouldn't consulting any trusted traditional cleric do?

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    3. You make very much sense in what you say. Thank you for the advice. While I am no theologian I try to think of what Pope St. Pius X said about lay Catholic Action in 1905 from IL FERMO PROPOSITO "8. All these works, sustained and promoted chiefly by lay Catholics and whose form varies according to the needs of each country, constitute what is generally known by a distinctive and surely a very noble name: "Catholic Action," or the "Action of Catholics." At all times it came to the aid of the Church, and the Church has always cherished and blessed such help, using it in many ways according to the exigencies of the age... Therefore, all who are called upon to direct or dedicate themselves to the Catholic cause, must be sound Catholics, firm in faith, solidly instructed in religious matters, truly submissive to the Church and especially to this supreme Apostolic See and the Vicar of Jesus Christ. They must be men of real piety, of manly virtue, and of a life so chaste and fearless that they will be a guiding example to all others. If they are not so formed it will be difficult to arouse others to do good and practically impossible to act with a good intention. The strength needed to persevere in continually bearing the weariness of every true apostolate will fail. The calumnies of enemies, the coldness and frightfully little cooperation of even good men, sometimes even the jealousy of friends and fellow workers (excusable, undoubtedly, on account of the weakness of human nature, but also harmful and a cause of discord, offense and quarrels)—all these will weaken the apostle who lacks divine grace."

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    4. @anon10:36
      You make good sense. Yes, a Traditionalist priest could be consulted since there is no bishop with Ordinary jurisdiction. I wrote “bishop” because they are usually (but not always) clerics with good knowledge and high morals. You are correct that some priests outshine the bishops, and I am modifying my response accordingly—seek the advice of a learned and holy Traditionalist bishop OR priest.

      @anon10:56
      That is an excellent quote from one of the holiest pontiffs the Church has ever known. We would all do well to remember it and live by it!

      —-Introibo

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  2. We saw examples during Holy Week of how Our Lord dialogued with the unbelievers of His time. Of course, He could see into everyone's heart and knew if the questioner's motives were good or bad. And sometimes His response was silence.

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    1. Very astute observation Barbara. Too bad the V2 sect doesn’t emulate His example. They’re successors of Judas.

      God Bless,

      —-Introibo

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  3. "The Church must enter into the dialogue with the world in which it lives. It has something to say, a message to give, a communication to make". Since "Satan is the God of this world", why would anyone want to dialogue with the world, unless they were of the world?

    JoAnn

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    1. Joann,
      You hit the nail on the head! The V2 sect is “of the world” and not of God!

      God Bless,

      —-Introibo

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  4. If the 4 separate Assisi events didn't wake up the Novus Ordo pewsitters,I'm afraid nothing will outside of a special grace from OUR BLESSED LORD.
    -Andrew
    Happy Easter

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    1. Andrew,
      Happy Easter my friend! I agree that if the Assisi abominations did nothing to make people leave the Vatican II sect in droves, it can only be done by the special grace of God.

      —-Introibo

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    2. The Assisi abominations did nothing for the R&R to wake up regarding their “Popes”. A lot of pew sitters in the NO are uninformed and clueless about Assisi, etc., but the R&R sure are not!!

      JoAnn

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    3. Joann,
      Good observation!

      —-Introibo

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