What's So Ordinary About Authority
By A Simple Man
It should go without saying to the long-time readers of this blog that debate and arguing (not to be confused with quarrelling) go hand in hand with being a sedevacantist in this day and age; after all, this theological position is (as of this writing) a distinct minority amongst those who call themselves Catholic. As such, those who have come to hold this belief are doubtless familiar with the many arguments raised for and against it. Sometimes, however, it seems like old territory gets retread over and over again. Alas, the battlefield is often not one of our choosing, and so we must take arms.
To set the stage: on August 10, 2020, Introibo published a post expanding on the Pastoral Constitution Gaudium et Spes (“On the Church in the Modern World”), promulgated on December 7, 1965 at the tail end of the Second Vatican Council. The focus of that post was on the various theologians who helped compose it, as well as certain errors contained within it. Months later, on January 10, 2021, a gentleman by the name of Aaron Debusschere made a reply to this post on his own blog, attempting to defend Vatican II against Introibo’s argument. Eight days later, Introibo published his counterargument to Mr. Debusschere.
Mr. Debusschere is not our focus today. Rather, it is an individual who goes by the pseudonym Contra Sedevacantism, who published a pithy reply to Mr. Debusschere’s post that essentially consisted of libelously disparaging Introibo (“[Introibo] is a moron…he’s so steeped in his own lies that he actually believes them…focus your attention on [those] who aren’t steeped in sin.”) before hawking his e-book Contra Sedevacantism: A Definitive Refutation of Sedevacantism (which, after perusing it, appears to be a retread – to some degree at the very least – of material and arguments already utilized by John Salza and Robert Siscoe of True or False Pope? fame, with some personal commentary by Contra mixed in). Readers of this blog might be familiar with that name, since Introibo and Contra crossed swords just last June, as seen in this post and the comments that followed.
Since the arguments presented by Contra in his e-book have been largely addressed before by others (as but one example, Novus Ordo Watch has published dozens of articles in response to Siscoe and Salza), I don’t want to walk over old ground; instead, I will be focusing on certain assertions and comments made by Contra, in the hopes of highlighting the difference in mindset with regards to authority in the Conciliar Church versus that of the Catholic Church. (All words by Contra will be in red from this point forward.)
With regards to his Introduction, Contra states the following: “[Some sedevacantists] will argue given the infallibility of the ordinary papal magisterium (which is a common theological opinion, albeit not de fide) that John XXIII must have been invalidly elected given the heretical content of Pacem in Terris.” In the interest of clarification, I inquired with Contra about his terms on his own blog, to which he then answered promptly:
1. When you say “ordinary papal magisterium”, are you referring to the Ordinary Universal Magisterium, or something else? I'm referring to the ordinary or authentic magisterium of the Pope. Some notable theologians, among them Fr. Joseph Fenton whom I cite in the book, argue that the pope's infallibility is not limited to extraordinary modes of teaching, but extends to his ordinary magisterial acts when he intends to teach definitely.
2. What is your source regarding the theological note you assign to that statement (namely, “common theological opinion” vs. “de fide”)? Whether it is a common theological opinion (sententia communis) or [m]erely probable, I can't say for certain, but it is held by several notable theologians such as Billot, Fenton, Franzelin, and Ward.
The reason I wished to be specific is due to a trend I’ve noticed throughout the years (starting while I was a member of the Conciliar Church): namely, “if it’s not infallible, then it can be contradicted or changed later on down the line.” The problem that comes from this mindset is that it artificially and erroneously constrains the very Teaching Authority of the Church into a false dichotomy of “infallible” vs “not infallible”.
First of all, what is “infallibility”? Per the 1910 Catholic Encyclopedia, infallibility is “in general, exemption or immunity from liability to error or failure; in particular in theological usage, the supernatural prerogative by which the Church of Christ is, by a special Divine assistance, preserved from liability to error in her definitive dogmatic teaching regarding matters of faith and morals.” Furthermore, being distinguished from both Divine Inspiration and Divine Revelation, infallibility “means more than exemption from actual error; it means exemption from the possibility of error; that it does not require holiness of life, much less imply impeccability in its organs; sinful and wicked men may be God's agents in defining infallibly; and finally that the validity of the Divine guarantee is independent of the fallible arguments upon which a definitive decision may be based, and of the possibly unworthy human motives that in cases of strife may appear to have influenced the result. It is the definitive result itself, and it alone, that is guaranteed to be infallible, not the preliminary stages by which it is reached.” (Source: Toner, P. (1910). “Infallibility”. The Catholic Encyclopedia. New York: Robert Appleton Company. Retrieved January 29, 2021 from New Advent: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07790a.htm)
Normally, infallibility is discussed with regards to ex cathedra pronouncements by the Roman Pontiff on matters of faith and morals, definitive decrees from Ecumenical Councils, and the doctrinal teaching of the Ordinary and Universal Magisterium of the Church. However, given the vast quantity of decisions, letters, and judgments promulgated by Catholic bishops throughout the ages, there is much which does not possess the character of infallibility. Does this then mean that that which is not infallible can then be ignored or discarded?
On the contrary, there is a level of assent which Catholics are obliged with regards to various decisions made by lawful authority. A brief selection of references follows (bold is emphasis mine):
"Having now inquired into the obligations of Catholics in regard to infallible pronouncements of the Church, there remains to be considered a third class of authoritative decisions which also have a binding force upon the faithful. The Church does not in all her pronouncements intend to exercise in full her supreme prerogative of infallibility. The reason for this we may suppose to be a merciful regard for human weakness, and a desire to give erring souls every opportunity of retractation before the final definitive sentence goes forth which would cast them out of the fold if they remained obdurate. Hence she frequently utters, in the exercise of her authority to teach and govern Christ’s flock, words of warning, exhortation or direction, in virtue not of her infallibility, but of her ordinary ecclesiastical authority. When she thus speaks, it is without doubt the duty of Catholics to listen and to submit their judgment to that of their pastors. This assent is one of religious obedience rather than of faith, though. It does pertain, in a certain degree, to the latter virtue…After all, when the Church speaks, even when she does not speak with all the weight of her infallible utterance, she does invariably give us safe guidance; for, though the speculative truth or falsity of some matter which she treats in this particular way may be, for a time, a matter of question, there can be no question at all that a Catholic is practically secure in listening to the voice of those whom God has set as bishops and pastors to rule the Church." (Source: Fr. Hughes, Henry George. (1906). Essentials and Non-Essentials of the Catholic Religion. Notre Dame, IN: The Ave Maria Press. pp. 26-27, 31. Italics in original. Electronically available in the public domain.)
"In defining the limits of the obedience owed to the pastors of souls, but most of all to the authority of the Roman Pontiff, it must not be supposed that it is only to be yielded in relation to dogmas of which the obstinate denial cannot be disjoined from the crime of heresy. Nay, further, it is not enough sincerely and firmly to assent to doctrines which, though not defined by any solemn pronouncement of the Church, are by her proposed to belief, as divinely revealed, in her common and universal teaching, and which the Vatican Council declared are to be believed “with Catholic and divine faith.” But this likewise must be reckoned amongst the duties of Christians, that they allow themselves to be ruled and directed by the authority and leadership of bishops, and, above all, of the apostolic see. And how fitting it is that this should be so any one can easily perceive. For the things contained in the divine oracles have reference to God in part, and in part to man, and to whatever is necessary for the attainment of his eternal salvation. Now, both these, that is to say, what we are bound to believe and what we are obliged to do, are laid down, as we have stated, by the Church using her divine right, and in the Church by the supreme Pontiff. Wherefore it belongs to the Pope to judge authoritatively what things the sacred oracles contain, as well as what doctrines are in harmony, and what in disagreement, with them; and also, for the same reason, to show forth what things are to be accepted as right, and what to be rejected as worthless; what it is necessary to do and what to avoid doing, in order to attain eternal salvation. For, otherwise, there would be no sure interpreter of the commands of God, nor would there be any safe guide showing man the way he should live." (Source: Encyclical Letter Sapientiae Christianae, Addressed by the Supreme Pontiff Leo XIII to the Patriarchs, Primates, Archbishops, and Bishops of the Catholic world in Grace and Communion with the Apostolic See. Promulgated on January 10, 1890. Retrieved January 29, 2021 from Papal Encyclicals Online: https://www.papalencyclicals.net/leo13/l13sapie.htm)
"To formulate and to discuss the criteria by which an infallible utterance may be diagnosed as such is another task for the theologian, and in any case is beyond the scope of this paper. For our purpose it is sufficient to register the fact that much of the authoritative teaching of the Church, whether in the form of Papal encyclicals, decisions, condemnations, replies from Roman Congregations – such as the Holy office – or from the Biblical Commission, is not an exercise of the infallible magisterium. And here once again our cautious believer raises his voice: “Must I believe it?” The answer is implicit in the principles already established. We have seen that the source of the obligation to believe is not the infallibility of the Church but her divine commission to teach. Therefore, whether her teaching is guaranteed by infallibility or not, the Church is always the divinely appointed teacher and guardian of revealed truth, and consequently the supreme authority of the Church, even when it does not intervene to make an infallible and definitive decision on matters of faith or morals, has the right, in virtue of the divine commission, to command the obedient assent of the faithful. In the absence of infallibility the assent thus demanded cannot be that of faith, whether Catholic or ecclesiastical; it will be an assent of a lower order proportioned to its ground or motive. But whatever name be given to it – for the present we may call it belief – it is obligatory; obligatory not because the teaching is infallible – it is not – but because it is the teaching of the divinely appointed Church. It is the duty of the Church, as Franzelin has pointed out, not only to teach revealed doctrine but also to protect it, and therefore the Holy See “may prescribe as to be followed or proscribe as to be avoided theological opinions or opinions connected with theology, not only with the intention of infallibly deciding the truth by a definitive pronouncement, but also – without any such intention – merely for the purpose of safeguarding the security of Catholic doctrine.” If it is the duty of the Church, even though non-infallibly, to “prescribe or proscribe” doctrines to this end, then it is evidently also the duty of the faithful to accept them or reject them accordingly. Nor is this obligation of submission to the non-infallible utterances of authority satisfied by the so-called silentium obsequiosum. The security of Catholic doctrine, which is the purpose of these decisions, would not be safeguarded if the faithful were free to withhold their assent. It is not enough that they should listen in respectful silence, refraining from open opposition. They are bound in conscience to submit to them, and conscientious submission to a doctrinal decree does not mean only to abstain from publicly rejecting it; it means the submission of one’s own judgment to the more competent judgment of authority." (Source: Canon Smith, George, Ph.D., D.D. (April 1935) “Must I Believe It?” The Clergy Review, vol. 9. Original article comprised pp. 296-309. Italics in original. Retrieved January 29, 2021 from Novus Ordo Watch: https://novusordowatch.org/2019/03/catholics-assent-non-infallible-teaching/)
"An astonishingly large number of prominent theologians can be found among those who take no adequate cognizance of the encyclical letters in their treatises on papal infallibility. These men content themselves with an examination of and a theological demonstration for the formula by which the Vatican Council defined the Holy Father’s infallibility. Bishop Joseph Fessler, the Vatican Council’s secretary, used this approach in his reply to the “Old Catholic” Schultes. The famous and highly influential Cardinal Cammillus Mazzella followed the same line, as did Archbishops Richard Downey, Valentine Zubizarreta, and Horace Mazzella, Bishop Michael d’Herbigny, Canon Auguste Leboucher, and Fathers Sylvester Berry, Hugo Hurter, Sylvester Hunter, Bernard Tepe, Raphael Cercia, Basil Prevel, Gabriel Casanova, and Gerard Paris. As a group these writers frequently give the impression that they consider only those truths proposed by the Holy Father solemni iudicio as infallibly defined, to the exclusion of those truths which he sets forth ordinario et universali magisterio. Another very imposing group of theologians explicitly list the papal encyclicals, at least in a general way, as non-infallible documents. Bishop Hilarinus Felder, Msgr. Caesar Manzoni, and Fathers Emil Dorsch, Reginald Schultes, Antonio Vellico, Ludwig Koesters, Ludwig Lercher, and Aelred Graham teach thus in their treatises. The same view is set forth by Fr. Mangenot in his excellent article on the encyclicals in the Dictionnaire de théologie catholique, by Fr. Lucien Choupin in his outstanding monograph, by Fr. Thomas Pegues in his frequently quoted article in the Revue thomiste on the authority of the encyclicals, and by Canon George Smith in his brilliant study on this subject in the Clergy Review. Fr. Jean Vincent Bainvel, along with Choupin and Schultes, incidentally, refers explicitly to the encyclicals of Pope Leo XIII and classifies them as non-infallible, while the article of Pegues was written as an answer to a question sent in to the Revue thomiste about the doctrinal authority of Pope Leo’s encyclicals. Fr. Herman Dieckmann classifies the doctrine contained in papal encyclicals with that of the Roman Congregations. The distinguished theologians who deny the papal encyclicals the status of infallible documents teach, none the less, that the faithful are bound in conscience to accord these letters not only the tribute of respectful silence, but also a definite and sincere internal religious assent. To this end many of them, like Fr. De Groot, apply to the encyclicals a teaching with the eminent and brilliant Dominic Palmieri had developed about the Catholic attitude towards non-infallible teaching in the Church. Pegues, in his Revue thomiste article, makes this application with his usual clarity. ‘Hence it follows that the authority of the encyclicals is not at all the same as that of the solemn definition, the one properly so-called. The definition demands an assent without reservation and makes a formal act of faith obligatory. The case of the encyclical’s authority is not the same. This authority (of the papal encyclicals) is undoubtedly great. It is, in a sense, sovereign. It is the teaching of the supreme pastor and teacher of the Church. Hence the faithful have a strict obligation to receive this teaching with an infinite respect. A man must not be content simply not to contradict it openly and in a more or less scandalous fashion. An internal mental assent is demanded. It should be received as the teaching sovereignly authorized within the Church. Ultimately, however, this assent is not the same as the one demanded in the formal act of faith. Strictly speaking, it is possible that this teaching (proposed in the encyclical letter) is subject to error. There are a thousand reasons to believe that it is not. It has probably never been (erroneous), and it is normally certain that it will never be. But, absolutely speaking, it could be, because God does not guarantee it as He guarantees the teaching formulated by way of definition’." (Msgr. Fenton, Clifford Joseph, S.T.D., S.T.L., J.C.B. (August 1949) “The Doctrinal Authority of Papal Encyclicals.” The American Ecclesiastical Review, vol. 121. Original article comprised pp. 136-150. Italics in original. Bracketed footnotes removed for sake of readability.)
"In the light of [previously mentioned] Thomistic principles, we can clarify the assent required in the case of Papal pronouncements in matters of belief and opinion. Belief. When we accept a statement on the extrinsic grounds of the authority of him who states it, we make an act of belief. Thus, we believe things taught by the Pope in his Ordinary Magisterium. But this act of belief is by no means an unreasonable, or irrational act. My will does not “do violence” to my reason, and “force” it to accept something against which, on rational grounds, it rebels. This is, I grant, the picture that critics of the Church’s Teaching Authority like to paint, but it is an absurd caricature…When the truth to be believed is presented to us by the Pope, the intellect, lacking intrinsic evidence for the truth itself, nevertheless does have a tremendously powerful and eminently rational extrinsic reason for assent: the authority and doctrinal competence of the Supreme Teacher of Christendom. This reason, since it is extrinsic, does not coerce the intellectual assent; it is not a necessitating reason, but it is a sufficient reason; and only on the intellectual judgment that the Papal Teaching Authority is a sufficient reason does the will move the intellect to assent…So far we have been dealing with the assent required for what is set forth by the Pope as a certain truth. Admittedly the truth is not guaranteed by the charisma of infallibility; also, in the case of belief, the certitude is neither metaphysical nor physical. But we do have a high degree of moral certitude of the truth itself. When the Pope, however, calls upon our assent in a matter of opinion, there are other elements to be considered. Opinion. Opinion, of its very nature, does not include certitude of the proposition opined; certitude always involves freedom from any fear of error, but opinion “accipit alterum oppositorum cum formidine alterius.” [ASM’s note: in other words, an opinion accepts one of two opposites, though with the fear that the other may be true.] It would seem that the assent required in the case of an opinion is more complex than that we give to a proposition set forth as containing a certain truth. Before examining briefly the nature of the psychological act, however, it must be noted that the Sovereign Pontiffs certainly do require a dutiful submission to the Teaching Authority in matters of opinion…What constitutes, exactly, the “internal religious assent” that we elicit in a matter of opinion? I think it is two-fold. As regards the opinion itself, we do not, of course, have certitude that what the proposition states is true. If we did have that certitude, we would no longer be in the field of opinion, and it is precisely as an opinion that the matter is presented to us. Motivated by the authority and competency of the Holy Father, we hold the matter precisely as an opinion. This is one aspect of the act of assent we make regarding a matter of opinion. I believe, however, that there is something more than this required for the integral unconditional internal assent we owe to the Pontifical assent even in the field of opinion. We also assent unconditionally, with no fear of error, to the fact that the opinion the Pope sets forth is well founded and safe, and is the opinion that we as Catholics are to act upon and follow. This two-fold view of the act of assent safeguards both the psychological reality involved and the docility due to the Teaching Authority of the Holy Father. There remains just one final word to be said in this section regarding the religious quality of the assent. Even where infallibility is not involved, nevertheless our assent, while not as intimately connected with divine faith as is the “fides mediate divina” we give to pronouncements regarding the secondary objects of infallibility, does ultimately depend upon our faith in the Teaching Authority of the Vicar of Christ on earth. We assent as Catholics; with the humility and docility and whole-heartedness proper to a religious act. We assent not hesitatingly, not grudgingly, but gladly; not as slaves but as men eminently free. For we have seen the Truth, and it is the Truth that makes men free." (Source: Fr. Benard, Edmond D. (June 25-27, 1951) “The Doctrinal Value of the Ordinary Teaching of the Holy Father in View of Humani Generis.” Proceedings of the Sixth Annual Convention of the Catholic Theological Society of America. pp. 94, 96-98. Italics in original. Retrieved on January 29, 2021 from https://ejournals.bc.edu/index.php/ctsa/article/view/2316/1894)
The preceding citation is well worth reading in its entirety, particularly for the opening pages that go into great detail regarding magisterial terminology. However, I believe the point has been well made.
To summarize, even when the full force of infallibility is not invoked in the magisterial teaching of the Church or the Roman Pontiff (be it solemn or ordinary), there is an obligation to assent externally and internally on the part of Catholics, corresponding to the degree and force of what is being promulgated. (This, incidentally, ties into why the Church’s theological qualifications specify the type of sin and censure that is attached to a denial of a given teaching, as elaborated by Fr. Sixtus Cartechini, S.J. in his 1951 work De Valore Notarum Theologicarum. For example, denying a dogma is a mortal sin directly against the virtue of faith, carrying with it the censure of heresy and – if outwardly professed – automatic excommunication; to contrast this, denying a certain teaching (usually a truth held unanimously by the theological schools as derived from revealed truth with multiple steps of reasoning, lesser in rank than a “dogmatic fact” or a “theological conclusion”) is generally a mortal sin of temerity, carrying with it the censure of temerarious; and so on.)
It is precisely in light of the prior citations (and many more not referenced here) that McHugh, O.P. and Callan, O.P. concisely state the moral principles regarding the assent owed by Catholics:
760. Many tenets of the Church, indeed, have not the prerogative of infallibility—for example, decrees of the Popes not given ex cathedra, decisions of Congregations made with Papal approval, teachings of Bishops to particular members of the Church, doctrines commonly held by Catholics as theological truths or certain conclusions. These decrees, decisions, etc., receive not the assent of Catholic faith, but what is called religious assent, which includes two things, viz., external and internal assent.
(a) External assent should be given such teachings—that is, the homage of respectful silence due to public authority. This does not forbid the submission of difficulties to the teaching authority, or the scientific examination of objections that seem very strong.
(b) Internal assent should be given such teaching—that is, the submission of the judgment of the individual to the judgment of the teacher who has the authority from Christ and assistance from the Holy Spirit. This internal assent differs, however, from the assent of faith, inasmuch as it excludes fear of error, but not of the possibility of error, and it may later on be suspended, called into doubt, or even revoked. Pope Pius X in his Motu proprio, "Praestantia scripturae Sacrae" (Nov. 18, 1907), indicated the binding force of the decrees both of the Pontifical Biblical Commission and of all doctrinal decrees: All are bound in conscience to submit to the decisions of the Biblical Commission which have been given in the past and which shall be given in the future, in the same way as to the decrees which appertain to doctrine, issued by the Sacred Congregations and approved by the Supreme Pontiff; nor can they escape the stigma both of disobedience and temerity, nor be free from grave guilt as often as they impugn their decisions either in word or writing; and this over and above the scandal which they give and the sins of which they may be the cause before God by making other statements on these matters which are very frequently both rash and false. (Reaffirmed by the Biblical Commission on Feb. 27, 1934.)
761. The objects, therefore, which formally or reductively pertain to the virtue of faith, are as follows:
(a) Divine faith has for its object all the truths revealed by God as contained in the Canonical scriptures approved by the Church, and in the teachings received by the Apostles from Christ or the Holy Spirit and handed down to the Church as Tradition. Private revelations in exceptional cases may also be the object of divine faith.
(b) Catholic faith has for its object all the truths formally revealed in scripture and Tradition that have been defined as such by the Church. The definitions of the Church are either solemn (e.g., those given in the Creeds, ex cathedra definitions of the Popes, decisions of Ecumenical Councils) or ordinary (e.g., those contained in the universal preaching, practice or belief of the Church, encyclical letters [see Humani Generis, n.20]). Equivalent to definitions are the condemnations of error opposed to revealed truths.
(c) According to some theologians ecclesiastical faith has for its object all infallible decisions of the Church about matters not revealed, but connected with revelation, or necessary for the exercise of the teaching office of the Church. Such are: (i) definitions, that is, definitive declarations of theological conclusions or of dogmatic facts, disciplinary laws made for the entire Church, canonization of the saints [ASM’s note: Note well, Siscoe and Salza, if you ever happen to read this], solemn approbation of religious Orders, express or special recognition of Doctors of the Church, declaration of the relation of private revelations to the public revelation; and (ii) censures, that is, condemnations of teachings, on account of falsity, as heretical, near to heresy, savoring of heresy, erroneous, rash, etc.; on account of their expression, as equivocal, ambiguous, presumptuous, captious, suspected, ill-sounding, offensive to pious ears, etc.; on account of their tendency, as scandalous, schismatical, seditious, unsafe, etc. Examples: The definitions concerning the sense of the book Augustinus, the suitability of the terms "consubstantial" and "transubstantiation," the agreement of the Vulgate with the original scriptures, the lawfulness of the insertion of the Filioque.
(d) Religious assent has for its object all doctrinal pronouncements of the Church that are not infallible, but are yet official and authoritative. Examples are ordinary instructions and condemnations given by Pontifical Congregations and Commissions. The Syllabus of Modern Errors issued by Pius IX was most likely not an infallible or definitive document, although many of the errors it rejects are contrary to dogma, and hence, even apart from the Syllabus, they are to be rejected as opposed to Catholic faith. Likewise, many of its tenets are drawn from encyclical letters. Papal allocutions, radio addresses, and the doctrinal parts of Apostolic Constitutions, in themselves, are in this class.
(e) Respect is due to the judgment of the Church even in non-doctrinal matters and where no obligation is imposed by her, on account of her position and the careful examination given before decision. Example: It would be disrespectful to reject without good reason a pious belief which the Church after mature deliberation has permitted to be held.
762. Though the truths of faiths are many, the duty of believing imposes no great burden on the believer. Thus: (a) it is not required that explicit belief be given to all the teachings of faith; (b) it is not required that one distinguish the particular kind of assent in case of uncertainty, but it suffices to yield assent according to the mind and intention of the Church. Example: When a group of propositions is condemned under various censures, no indication being made of the censure that applies to particular propositions, it suffices to hold that all of them are false, and that to each of them applies one or more of the censures listed.
(Source: Fr. McHugh, John A. and Fr. Callan, Charles J. (May 24, 1958) “Part II. Special Moral Theology: Art. 1. The Virtue of Faith – The Object of Faith.” Moral Theology: A Complete Course Based on St. Thomas Aquinas and the Best Modern Authorities. New York City: Joseph F. Wagner, Inc. para. 760-762. Italics in original. Retrieved on January 29, 2021 from Project Gutenberg: http://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/35354/pg35354.html)
Even if we were to assume (for the sake of argument) that something like Amoris Laetitia was merely Francis’s opinion, could we even deign to classify it as safe for Catholics to assent to?
This is the unfortunate scenario that Contra Sedevacantism finds himself in, as seen from his concluding thoughts on page 263 of his e-book: "Indeed, it is easy to see that the vast majority of bishops share the Pope’s ideas about false ecumenism, false religious freedom, etc. It is therefore impossible to imagine in the current circumstances, a judgment of a General Council which would declare the heresy of Pope Francis. Humanly speaking we see the situation is hopeless. We must wait that the Providence, in one way or another, shows the way to overcome this impasse. Meanwhile, it is prudent to maintain the position of Archbishop Lefebvre and pray for the Pope, while resisting his “heresies”." I can certainly tell you what won’t overcome this impasse: recognizing as the Roman Catholic Church an institution that, among other things
- Universally promulgates a “Mass” formulated by Modernists with the help of six Protestant theologians to replace the traditional Latin Mass of the Roman Rite, emphasizing the presence of Christ in the gathered assembly at the expense (and the denigration, I would argue) of the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist and the Mass’s character as a propitiatory sacrifice;
- Promulgates disciplinary and liturgical laws that not only allow non-Catholics to partake of the sacraments without having to abjure their errors and reconcile with the Church (to the point of lessening the extreme degree as to what a sacramental emergency traditionally entailed, especially with regards to the Eucharist), but allows public communication (and even active participation!) in non-Catholic rites of worship (contrast paragraph 964 from McHugh and Callan’s Moral Theology and Canon 1258 §1 from the 1917 Code of Canon Law with Part IV of John Paul II’s Directory for the application of Principles and Norms on Ecumenism, promulgated on March 25, 1993 to “the Pastors of the Catholic Church” with the additional hope that the Directory would be “useful to members of Churches and ecclesial Communications that are not in full communion with the Catholic Church.”);
- Regularly promotes and participates in “interfaith” gatherings with heretics, schismatics, infidels, and pagans, most notably in the Assisi Interreligious Prayer meetings in 1986, 1993, 2002, 2011, and 2016;
- Publicly issues a joint declaration with the Lutheran World Federation that the modern Lutheran Church’s doctrine on justification (as of October 1999) does not fall under the condemnations of the Council of Trent, when the declaration’s own descriptions of that doctrine run afoul of Trent’s solemn anathemas.
I could go on. Does the above sound like an institution which cares about the salvation of souls?
Some other miscellaneous tidbits from Contra’s e-book, commented on in no particular order:
- Contra blanketly condemns sedevacantism as heretical, per the very title of Chapter 1 (“Sedevacantism is Heretical”). Notwithstanding the simple retort that every Catholic is a sedevacantist during a papal interregnum, it is simply false strictly speaking to state this unequivocally (notwithstanding certain old and/or fallacious arguments to the contrary). As but one example, to profess an extended papal interregnum does not entail a direct denial of the perpetual nature of the Church’s governance or her indefectibility. Interestingly enough, on pp. 77-79, Contra directly quotes one of Introibo’s comments from his post “Contra Catholicism” when discussing the matter of an extended papal interregnum; aside from Contra saying that “an extended interregnum is not intrinsically incompatible with the necessity of ordinary jurisdiction” (and I’m not sure why he would respond with this, given that Introibo explicitly says that “Ordinary jurisdiction is not necessary” is but a possible solution of the two he provided), he caps off that section by stating “laws of purely ecclesiastical origin would cease to be binding when they become harmful to the Church…supposing an extended papal interregnum was possible, the requirement of a papal mandate for episcopal consecrations would be suspended at least temporally [recte temporarily].” This, in rather few words, sounds like an application of the principle of epikeia, which a lot of sedevacantists cite with regards to the decisions they make in this day and age, so…good on Contra for coming to an agreement, I suppose?
(I also don’t know why he responds to Introibo’s second solution with “the quotation by Fr. Salaverri is inapposite, since no one is denying the hypothetical possibility of a heretical Pope.” There are actually a lot of people who deny the possibility of a heretical Pope, even as a hypothetical, for there are many (yours truly included) who consider it a blanket contradiction in terms.
- Contra argues that St. Robert Bellarmine rejects the Great Apostasy. The specific citation Contra references (pp. 203-206) from Bellarmine’s On the Church Militant argues against the Protestants of his day who were arguing that a Great Apostasy of sorts had already occurred in the past, and were trying to attribute such a falling away to the Catholic Church. It is fallacious to assert that Bellarmine thereby rejects in general the idea of the Great Apostasy, since – notwithstanding eschatological debates and common opinions regarding when and how the end times will begin, when and where Antichrist will arise, etcetera – not all who profess belief in the Great Apostasy (sedevacantist or otherwise) necessarily believe that all Catholic bishops will thereby apostatize as a result (and this is not even getting into those who think that what we are facing now is simply a lesser apostasy, akin in scope to the Arian Heresy, the Byzantine Iconoclasms, or the Protestant Revolution).
Furthermore, given how much ink Bellarmine spilt debating Protestants (who had all been subjects of the Catholic Church a mere generation or two before his birth), it wouldn’t be beyond the saint’s imagination to envision or conceive of a great falling away of the lay faithful at the very least, especially in light of the stark terms with which he describes the persecution of the Antichrist in Chapter VII, Book III of De Romano Pontifice: “in the time of Antichrist, on account of the atrocity of persecution, the public office and daily sacrifice of the Church will cease…” (For the record, I don’t think the Antichrist has become manifest yet, since the daily sacrifice of the Church is still ongoing.) As such, Contra’s statement in the subsequent section (regarding Henry Cardinal Manning’s reliance on Bellarmine and other theologians for his prophecy) – “Bellarmine offers six counterarguments to protestant claims of the Pope being the antichrist. The same arguments utilized by Bellarmine can be applied to sedevacantist claims.” – falls flat, because being a sedevacantist does not necessitate a concurrent belief that we are now living through the Great Apostasy of end times prophecy (even though I acknowledge that there are some who do believe this). Furthermore, in the interest of fairness, I would argue that there are many sedevacantists who use the term “Great Apostasy” in a looser sense, referring to the general coarsening of morals and decrease of faith in the leadup to the actual Revolt, and the emergence of Antichrist; for as the same Cardinal Manning states elsewhere: “Such, then, is the Revolt, which has been gathering strength these 1800 years, and ripening for the hour when it shall receive its leader and head.” (Source: Fr. Manning, Henry Edward, D.D. (1862) The Temporal Power of the Vicar of Jesus Christ (2nd ed.). London: Burns & Lambert. pp. 103.)
- Contra argues that sedevacantists who reject Vatican II are akin to Protestants that judged and rejected the Council of Trent. (pp. 185-186) First of all, the very first condition cited from Bellarmine – “[The Protestants] require that before [an Ecumenical] Council occurs all the acts of the Council of Trent be invalidated.” – isn’t one that sedevacantists generally profess (the only ones I can think of off the top of my head are the vacancy pushers who go back to a time before Trent, but I can comfortably say that they’re a distinct minority). Secondly, this assumes the very fact that’s under dispute: Contra argues that sedevacantists reject an ecumenical council, while sedevacantists argue that Vatican II (in light of everything which was promulgated afterwards) wasn’t a true ecumenical council to begin with. Third, to compare Trent to Vatican II is erroneous, since – in letter, in spirit, and in fact – much of Trent has been repudiated by Vatican II and its fruits. (On a tangential note, why exactly is being equated with a Protestant a bad thing, to use the Conciliar Church’s standards? After all, are Protestants not also “means of salvation”? It would only be a problem if Contra believes that there is no salvation outside of the Catholic Church, but that wouldn’t be a very “ecumenical” attitude.)
- Contra states that (assuming, for the sake of his argument, that the Second Vatican Council is heretical), per canon 2316 of the 1917 Pio-Benedictine Code, the entire body of bishops would be suspect of heresy if they accepted Vatican II. However, “then the formal visibility of the Church would be undermined since the note of apostolicity of doctrine would be called into question.” First of all, Canon 2316 explicitly states that “whoever in any manner willingly and knowingly helps in the promulgation of heresy, or who communicates in things divine with heretics against the prescription of Canon 1258, is suspected of heresy.” It is easy for some to make claims in hindsight, but there are many sedevacantists who honestly acknowledge the confusing reality of what was occurring at that time for those who lived through it. If someone as orthodox and erudite as Monsignor Fenton struggled to reconcile Vatican II with what came before, then how can we readily claim that all of the bishops at that Council “willingly and knowingly” promulgated heretical doctrine? (I can’t help but note that on pp. 174, Contra underlines “helps in the promulgation of heresy” but not “willingly and knowingly”, which changes a great deal. Decades later, ignorance of the errors promulgated can be deemed less excusable in light of their rotten fruits, but at that time? A lot of people were confused by the changes introduced and what came after them.) Secondly, it strikes me as disingenuous to use suspicion of heresy as a means to discredit sedevacantism (at least with regards to the Church’s formal visibility), while at the same time arguing elsewhere that suspicion of heresy is not as big of a deal that sedevacantists make it out to be in light of various caveats (see pp. 7 with regards to John XXIII, pp. 154 with regards to suspicion of heresy vs. notorious heresy, pp. 168 with regards to canonical warnings, and so on). After all, if the entire body of bishops became suspect of heresy because of Vatican II, yet weren’t warned (hypothetically speaking) about the cause of their suspicion, then how can Contra say that the formal visibility of the Church is negatively impacted in any meaningful way?
- Contra argues that, with regards to Lumen Gentium, “the purpose of altering the phrase from "est" to "subsistit in" is to recognize those material elements of the Church (e.g., sacraments, power of orders) that reside in other ecclesial bodies, whereas it is only the Catholic Church which is the form or singular instantiation of the Church of Christ.” Notwithstanding that this conception of ecclesiology would have been utterly foreign in the eyes of the Church’s Magisterium prior to Vatican II, none other than Joseph Ratzinger comments on the Council’s discrepancy with what was taught prior: “We now ask the following question: what really was the idea of the Council on the universal Church? It cannot be rightly said that the Letter of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith tacitly identifies the universal Church with the Roman Church, or de facto with the Pope and the Curia…With this expression, the Council differs from the formula of Pius XII, who said in his Encyclical Mystici Corporis Christi: "The Catholic Church “is” (est) the one mystical body of Christ". The difference between subsistit and est [conceals] within itself the whole ecumenical problem.” (Source: Ratzinger, Joseph. (19 September 2001) “The Ecclesiology of the Constitution on the Church, Vatican II, ‘Lumen Gentium’.” L’Osservatore Romano (Weekly Edition in English). pp. 5. Retrieved on January 30, 2021 from EWTN: https://www.ewtn.com/catholicism/library/ecclesiology-of-the-constitution-on-the-church-vatican-ii-lumen-gentium-2068)
Alas, by the time Ratzinger ‘became Pope Benedict XVI’ (as Contra would assert), his complaints about misinterpretations of Vatican II still did not result in a return to the traditional understanding of true ecumenism: “Two rules are generally regarded nowadays as fundamental for interreligious dialogue: 1. Dialogue does not aim at conversion, but at understanding. In this respect it differs from evangelization, from mission; 2. Accordingly, both parties to the dialogue remain consciously within their identity, which the dialogue does not place in question either for themselves or for the other. These rules are correct, but in the way they are formulated here I still find them too superficial. True, dialogue does not aim at conversion, but at better mutual understanding – that is correct. But all the same, the search for knowledge and understanding always has to involve drawing closer to the truth. Both sides in this piece-by-piece approach to truth are therefore on the path that leads forward and towards greater commonality, brought about by the oneness of the truth. As far as preserving identity is concerned, it would be too little for the Christian, so to speak, to assert his identity in a such a way that he effectively blocks the path to truth. Then his Christianity would appear as something arbitrary, merely propositional. He would seem not to reckon with the possibility that religion has to do with truth.” (Source: Ecumenical Meeting Apostolic Journey to Cologne on the Occasion of the XX World Youth Day, Addressed by Benedict XVI to Representatives of other Churches and Ecclesial Communities. Delivered on August 19, 2005. Retrieved on January 30, 2021 from http://www.vatican.va/content/benedict-xvi/en/speeches/2005/august/documents/hf_ben-xvi_spe_20050819_ecumenical-meeting.html)
(Ratzinger’s proverbial word salad stands in stark contrast to Pope Leo XIII in paragraph 8 of Satis Cognitum: “Whatsoever [Jesus Christ] commands, He commands by the same authority. He requires the assent of the mind to all truths without exception. It was thus the duty of all who heard Jesus Christ, if they wished for eternal salvation, not merely to accept His doctrine as a whole, but to assent with their entire mind to all and every point of it, since it is unlawful to withhold faith from God even in regard to one single point.” If Christ is the Way, the Truth, and the Life; if the Church He founded is the pillar and ground of the truth; then what good does it do for the Christian in Ratzinger’s hypothetical ‘dialogue’ to compromise on the Truth so that he may have “greater commonality” with someone who does not possess it? Alas, this modern emphasis on “dialogue”, as understood by the Conciliar Church, has had the practical effect of minimizing the essential importance of evangelization and conversion. Case in point: Ratzinger once advised a Lutheran to not convert to Catholicism, and so she died a Lutheran in 2014.)
There are more things I could comment on, but I believe this post has gone on long enough.
In conclusion, Contra has put himself in the unenviable position of arguing in defense of a religion whose visible head – the putative sign of unity for the faithful, the stable rock of faith and doctrine, the means by which one is supposed to know whether or not they’re even Catholic – is objectively contrary in his teachings on faith and morals (infallible or otherwise) to that which came before; furthermore, it is a religion whose hierarchy (from all appearances) uses its ordinary authority to regularly promote and promulgate non-Catholic practices, morals, and teachings. However, in the end, if you don’t like what one bishop says, you can simply go to one you do think is sufficiently orthodox; thus does one bid farewell to the Chair of Unity!
Even though Contra asserts that Providence will provide the way to overcome this harrowing ‘pontificate’, he has already conceded that which is non-negotiable, letting the metaphorical fox into the theological henhouse: by conceding that the Vicar of Christ can teach error and falsehood in his capacity as the Pope – but only so long as it’s not “infallible” – Contra has implicitly condemned the ordinary authority of the Roman Pontiff, and ultimately that of the Church herself.
Even though I agree that this particular crisis will be ultimately resolved by God’s Providence, I can at least take solace in the possibility of a true Pope returning to the Chair of St. Peter; one who “even in his human weaknesses…is invincible and unshakable,” to quote Pius XII from his 1949 address Ancora Una Volta.
Contra and his fellow “Recognize & Resisters” can’t even claim that much, for their doctrinal and theological presuppositions implicitly reduce the Roman Pontiff to…well, just one more ordinary man among many.
The "traditionalists" are ready to accept anything, even the Church and their "popes" can teach heresies, to avoid becoming sedevacantists. I was already in this position before becoming sedevacantist but I understood that the position of R&R is not tenable. Now they have a conciliar church which accepts homosexuality and adultery and a "pope" who says that hell does not exist, that atheists can go to Heaven and that convert non-Catholics to the true Faith is solemn nonsense. We were warned that the devil would set up a false church that would imitate the true church. Many have been deceived and many others are still deceived because they refuse to open their eyes...
ReplyDeleteSimon,
DeleteThey claim to see the heresy but refuse to call it that or draw the logical and necessary conclusion.
"Jesus said to them: If you were blind, you should not have sin: but now you say: We see. Your sin remaineth."
(St. John 9:41).
God Bless,
---Introibo
Ah, I knew I had forgotten something. Fenton's article "The Doctrinal Authority of Papal Encyclicals" was retrieved on 01/29/2021 from here: http://www.catholicapologetics.info/thechurch/encyclicals/docauthority.htm
ReplyDelete(Part 1 of 2)
ReplyDeleteAs a brief postscript to this guest post: I recently listened to an 80+ minute podcast on the Sensus Fidelium Youtube channel (which hosts various FSSP/ICKSP/conservative Novus Ordo sermons and talks, which are worth listening to if only to get a current view into the mindset of the R&R/Indult crowd) between Rev. Chad Ripperger FSSP and Ryan Grant on the subject of theological notes (www.youtube.com/watch?v=T4hIgDR29bg). Aside from much that was solid traditional theology (with much of their conversation being cited from Ludwig Ott's "Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma"), Ripperger's "pick & choose" mindset with regards to Vatican 2 was on full display. For example, within the first 10 minutes, Ripperger brings up the "Vatican 2 was only pastoral" canard; near the end of the podcast, starting at the 1:14:23 mark, Ryan Grant actually brings up Paul VI's statement regarding how Vatican II, despite not pertaining to any extraordinary magisterial acts, still belonged to the universal ordinary Magisterium. When Ryan inquires as to what the UOM is, here's how Ripperger responds, starting at 1:15:20 : "[Paul VI]'s actually using that term though in a way that doesn't really fulfill what most people understand by the universal ordinary Magisterium...a universal ordinary magisterial proposition can be infallible, but it has to be proposed by all the bishops, and some theologians [have said] 'yeah it's not just the bishops that are alive today; it has to be through the totality of history. Or at least it can't be contrary to the totality of history'. So when Paul VI said it was part of the [UOM], he's talking about something that's being proposed generally by most of the bishops...and himself, so it's kind of the [UOM], but it...doesn't meet the critera for infallibility...because there was no intention in relationship to these things to put an end to discussion, that is they don't consider these things to necessarily be of the faith..." It strikes me as outright hubris for Ripperger to assert that Paul VI didn't mean what he said when he referred to the UOM (technically the "Supreme Ordinary Magisterium" as quoted, but still referring to the same UOM in practicality), especially in light of everything that followed Vatican II, which *more* than made clear how the intentions of the council were to be promulgated.
(To be continued)
(Part 2 of 2)
ReplyDeleteFurther on, when saying that religious assent is obligated to members of the magisterium "unless there's sufficient reason to contrary", Ryan Grant (at about 1:19:00) rightly brings up how subjective this attitude is, and justly inquires as to how one avoids "Protestant private judgment" (in practical terms) when you have subjective areas (where someone says no to V2 because it contradicts, say, Leo XIII; whereas another says V2 is just fine). Ripperger's response, beginning at 1:19:40, essentially argues as follows: the criteria for withholding religious obedience to the current magisterium is based on the actual Tradition of the past, and what has been defined by the magisterium. He lists the objective criteria as "the tradition" first ("But you HAVE TO KNOW THE TRADITION WELL," he emphasizes; "you have to have precise knowledge of exactly how they're talking about it and you can't just have some vague knowledge of it..."), and "the magisterium" second. **This is exactly backwards!** It inverts the proper order of things, because it is through the Divine Teaching Authority of the Church that we even know what belongs to Sacred Tradition (and Sacred Scripture) to begin with! Rev. Ripperger essentially argues that the average lay Catholic must know the precise content of Tradition so that they may know if or when they can withhold obedience to the "current Magisterium".
That this attitude is *profoundly* non-Catholic in theory *and* practice should go without saying.
As an addendum, when speaking about the universal and constant consensus of theologians as elaborated by Pius IX in Tuas Libenter (starting at about 32:34), Ripperger is very quick to clarify that he's not referring to modern theologians, or those like Rahner and Schillebeeckx; rather, he asserts that the theologians mentioned are those (and their theological schools) from 1100 - 1750, and *no other time*. Notwithstanding that he provides no evidence in this podcast for making such a demarcation, I've seen no evidence in any magisterial, pontifical, or catechetical works indicating that common consensus of theologians is restricted to that timeframe. (Need I remind Ripperger that this would necessarily exclude theologians like Garrigou-Lagrange, Frederick Faber, Joseph Hergenröther, Luigi Taparelli, Giuseppe Pecci, and Joseph Clifford Fenton, among others?)
This is but a very recent example of how a skewed understanding of the Church's authority can lead to drastic consequences.
Sincerely,
A Simple Man
Simple Man,
DeleteI can't help but wonder: Is Ripperger (who holds a doctorate in philosophy from the Pontifical University of the Holy Cross and a Masters in theology) be THAT ignorant....or is he purposely being deceptive to keep the traditional-minded trapped in the sect of Bergoglio?
---Introibo
Introibo,
DeleteLacking knowledge of the particular character of Novus Ordo seminaries and the pontifical universities today (since they would be steeped in the Indult viewpoints of the FSSP at their most traditional, which presupposes that Vatican II is a valid Council, and thus must be seen "in the light of Tradition"), I'm unable to speak of how much traditional Catholic theology Rev. Ripperger learned in seminary or in academia.
Interestingly enough, the Pontifical University of the Holy Cross was founded in 1984 as a private athenaeum by none other than Opus Dei; it wasn't until 1998 that John Paul II granted it the rank of 'university'.
Given Opus Dei's reputation, I can only wonder what their curriculum was comprised of during Ripperger's time there.
Sincerely,
A Simple Man
If V2 is only "Pastoral",why were the traditional Rite of Holy Orders,including Episcopal consecration,100% forbidden after April 4,1969?
DeleteWhy do men like "Fr" Chad Ripperger,who emphatically boycott the "New Mass" circa 1967/1969,simultaneously accept every departure from Catholic tradition post 1965,including eliminating sacramental rubrics which go back to the 5th century,bare minimum?
Very bizarre nonsensical theology for such an educated academic "Priest."
Amazing how someone so educated + intelligent ends up being a theological bridge to nowhere.
-A
A,
DeleteI think part of it is that the various presuppositions which Novus Ordo clergy (regardless of how liberal or conservative) are trained and brought up with are hard to shake off. As but one example, try criticizing "John Paul the Great" in front of those who absolutely convinced of his sainthood/canonization.
As but one more consideration: considering the following citation from Salaverri's "On the Church of Christ":
"780. The concept of the Rule of faith is related to what was just said, so Scripture and Tradition are customarily called by theologians the remote Rule of faith, but the Magisterium the proximate Rule of faith. The Rule of faith theoretically is the principle according to which in general is determined which truths are divinely revealed and which all the faithful are bound to believe and to profess...781. Scripture and Tradition are, therefore, the remote and objective Rule of faith, because from them, as from fountains, the Magisterium draws what is proposed for belief to the faithful. The Magisterium, however, is the proximate and active proximate Rule of faith, because immediately from it the faithful are bound to learn what they must believe about those things that are contained in the sources of revelation, and what they must hold about those things that have a necessary connection with the revealed truths (see Denz. 3018, 3020)." (Source: Salaverri, Joachim, S.J. (1955) 'On the Church of Christ.' "Sacrae Theologiae Summa, IB" pp. 296-297. English translation published in 2015 by Keep the Faith, Inc.)
Now, in a world where the notion of experience (as seen in the philosophies of phenomenology and existentialism) have become so baked in, I don't find it surprising that people like Ripperger and others would emphasize the remote Rule of Faith, since those are essentially the "primary sources", so to speak.
*However*, from the standpoint of how the Catholic Church actually teaches her children, there is a reason that the Magisterium is of greater importance with regards to how the Church teaches, for that particular authority is derived from the sources of Divine Revelation, and as such is supreme when it comes to how the faithful are supposed to learn the truths connected with faith, morals, responsibilities, duties, and so forth.
As such, although the Magisterium is truly distinct from the sources of Divine Revelation, it - as the guardian and interpreter and *explainer* of these sources - is of greater importance with regards to the faithful, since it is through the Magisterium that we generally come to knowledge about the sources of Divine Revelation. Hence why of the two Rules of Faith, the Magisterium is truly active and proximate, whereas Scripture and Tradition are only remote. (This is also not going into the fact that, were it not for the Magisterium and the divine promises granted to the Church, we would have likely lost all knowledge of the remote Rule of Faith by now.)
Sincerely,
A Simple Man
Introbio, and Simple man,
DeleteI’ve heard a few of Ripperger’s talks on YouTube. He makes a point of saying that if the new mass was true then he could not drive out demons by exorcism. He uses as proof that demons tell him that the new mass works on them and they react accordingly to it. It is very concerning to me that he would use the words of demons (if his stories are true) to form his opinions on theological matters. I may not be doing him justice for I cannot remember his exact words, but he is very explicit that the words and reactions of demons prove sedevacantism is false. his videos are all online if you want to check it out.
Ryan,
DeleteThat is very disconcerting to say the least. Demons can imitate such reactions to deceive and keep people in the Vatican II sect. They can even imitate miracles. (See Exodus 7:8-13).
God Bless,
---Introibo
This is the same person who was on Mr. Speray's website that tried to argue against his post rebutting the so called Kraken against sedevacantism by Salza and Siscoe. When I asked him in the comment section on that website if he was one in faith with his pope Francis he wouldn't answer the question because if he wasn't, then he would have to answer why he is in schism with his pope and if he was, he would have explain why he adheres/shares the same heresies as his pope such as "God willing the diversity of religions" etc.
ReplyDeleteRecently, Francis declared that "Either you are with the Church and therefore you follow the Council (Vatican II), and if you do not follow the Council or you interpret it in your own way, as you wish, you are not with the Church. In this respect we have to be demanding, severe. No, the Council is not subject to negotiation in order to have more of these…. No, this is how it is with the council. And this problem that we are experiencing, the selectivity of the Council, has been repeated throughout history with other Councils."
If Francis were a true Pope, then in principle he would be right that the faithful would have to give assent and to follow out of obedience what the Council teaches and not what Cd. Bradmuller or Archbishop Vigano says about it.
Also, Vatican I (Pastor Aeternus) declared "And their truth has been proved by the course of history, for in the Apostolic See the Catholic religion has always been kept unsullied, and its teaching kept holy.’ …for they fully realized that this See of St. Peter always remains unimpaired by any error, according to the divine promise of our Lord and Savior made to the prince of his disciples, ‘I have prayed for thee, that thy faith may not fail; and do thou, when once thou has turned again, strengthen thy brethren’ (Luke 22:32)... So, this gift of truth and a never failing faith was divinely conferred upon Peter and his successors in this chair, that they might administer their high duty for the salvation of all; that the entire flock of Christ, turned away by them from the poisonous food of error, might be nourished on the sustenance of heavenly doctrine, that with the occasion of schism removed the whole Church might be saved as one, and relying on her foundation might stay firm against the gates of hell.”
Has Francis kept the Catholic religion unsullied and teaching holy, remained unimpaired by any error, have unfailing faith from Christ’s prayer, strengthen his brethren with the Catholic Faith, turned the poisonous food of error away from the flock of Christ, nourished the Catholic flock with heavenly doctrine, removed all occasion of schism that the Church might be saved as one, and stayed firm against the gates of hell?
If the answer is yes, why would he need to be deposed or declared so for heresy, and if the answer is no, how is he the pope, without violating the infallible Vatican I declaration?
For more info: https://feedreader.com/observe/stevensperay.wordpress.com/+view
The R&R are just a distraction from reality. They demand everybody call Francis-John XXIII popes but they don't believe they have to follow them as popes because of their heresy/apostasy. It's hypocrisy and dishonesty at its best.
Lee
Lee,
DeleteLooking at the various back-and-forth comments, I certainly don't agree with the tone of Mr. Speray's rhetoric in many of his replies (I can't exactly blame his palpable frustration at not having simple questions answered, but there comes a point where argument and debate descends into strife, at which point it does no good for anyone involved), but CS certainly can't claim the moral high ground when he calls Steve: "a moron", "insane", and "a demon"(!!). To quote from one reply in full:
"In the inimitable words of Arnold Schwarzenegger, “Who’s your daddy, and what does he do?” We both know that your father is the devil. You spew forth your vile filth in every comment. May God rebuke you, you unholy creature."
To reiterate from my own post: that's not a very "ecumenical" attitude for Contra to hold. The man he professes to be the Pope would be absolutely aghast and outraged at such horrific "dialogue".
Sincerely,
A Simple Man
One Question for everyone,including Introibo.
DeleteIn all seriousness & respect,is it productive to pray daily for the conversion of Jorge B?
Should we pray for others to convert,as in moral sensible kind Soul's who are
non-Catholics but have good sense judgement charity towards others etc?
I wasn't raised traditional Catholic and need clarity.
God bless -Andrew
Objectively,trad-Catholics are an irrelevant,disconnected,
Deleteclandestine,hated,miniscule, & mocked minority.
If you aren't Catholic,terms like Sedevacantist,R+R,Indult,
anti Una cum,are 100% meaningless to secular non- Catholics.
Pray for Catholic unity, conversions,fortitude,humility,
and complete submission to our
Blessed Lord's divine will.
God bless -Andrew
You can pray for his conversion just like you can pray for the conversion of others. Whether it's productive on somebody's behalf or not isn't necessarily important, but it is important to be in the state of sanctifying grace when praying for others in order for it to be meritorious. It is also a spiritual work of mercy to pray for the living and the dead.
DeleteIf it makes you feel better, I pray that Jorge B. converts as many out of the Novus Ordo as possible because if he can't do it then nobody can and I pray that one day after he has destroyed as much as possible that he to (if possible) has an interior conversion.
Question for you. Why do you make a comment below telling lay people to be careful giving spiritual advice but in the question above ask lay people for spiritual advice?
Lay people can give spiritual advice as long as its in accordance with teachings of the Church and it leads towards true charity. It may be proper to ask priests/bishops questions because they are suppose to be the Persona Christi's of the world but I will be honest with you every priest/bishop (sedevacantist) I ask these days for advice gives me different answers to the same questions depending on what my question is. So which one should I follow if my answer is different? I choose the answer that is the closest to the teachings of the Church and which makes the most sense.
Lee
Andrew,
DeleteIt is one of the spiritual works of mercy to pray for the living (including your enemies) and the dead. You most certainly can pray for Bergoglio's conversion.
---Introibo
ASM,
ReplyDeleteWas Pope St. Pius X wrong when he said this about Modernists: "They want them to be treated with oil, soap and caresses. But they should be beaten with fists. In a duel, you don't count or measure the blows, you strike as you can."
Contra is a modern day modernist. He is teaching something that the Catholic Church doesn't really teach but in order to fit his theology he spins it (as they all do) to make it look like it does. When he gets caught he doesn't answer hard questions and yet he expects his readers to beLIEve that we should all just accept Francis-John XXIII as the pope.
I don't believe people like him deserve any sympathy because he should know better. Truth is all that matters. If the truth doesn't edify people, then people aren't really interested in the truth regardless of the tone. People need to put their emotions aside and listen to the voice of reason and get serious about their salvation because it's going be a lot worse on the day of judgment and tone won't matter.
Lee
Lee,
DeleteI entirely agree that Contra's arguments should be rebuffed with all the force necessary. That being said, polemical excess can unwittingly reduce the actual force of the arguments you employ (as I've personally witnessed over and over again elsewhere throughout my time on the Internet, in fields of debate and argument within and beyond traditional Catholicism).
I have no problem telling Contra that what he professes is objectively *wrong* in light of the traditional teaching and practice of the Roman Catholic Church, and that his disparaging behavior thus far with regards to certain of his critics is simply reprehensible (both from the standpoint of Catholicism *and* the Novus Ordo sect he professes to belong to). Engaging in ad hominem on my part isn't going to change anything for them, or for any outsider who happens to stumble across our argument. If it results in me engaging in the sin of contention, then that does me no good either (for as St. Paul warned per 2 Timothy 2:14, "Contend not in words, for it is to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers." Even a disavowal and refutation of falsehood, if done in an inordinate manner, can scandalize others, as St. Thomas warns in ST II-II, q. 38, a.1).
If no sign of improvement is shown, then - per the example from our Lord regarding the throwing of pearls before swine - I'll simply move on instead of spending more time on a futile endeavor.
In short, I can disagree with certain rhetorical choices made by Mr. Speray without minimizing or disagreeing with the inherent force of his arguments; my preference is to let the argument speak for itself.
Sincerely,
A Simple Man
ASM,
DeleteYou can disagree. I think Contra's argument spoke for itself based on his replies. In other words, his responses kept getting worse and the more he kept writing, the more he exposed himself. I also don't think Mr. Speray kept replying for Contra's sake (knowing that he is bad willed) but for the readers sake to show what kind of person Contra really is. If somebody comes after you as a person (ad hominem) there is nothing wrong with defending yourself and turning the tables on that other person. People can be soft if they want to be and kill with kindness but some people don't deserve kindness. Our Lord wasn't always kind either. He said the Jews father was the Devil when he said "You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you will do." Jn 8:44.
Lee
Does anyone have a good source for Pope Pius X's quote above? "They want them to be treated with oil, soap and caresses. But they should be beaten with fists. In a duel, you don't count or measure the blows, you strike as you can."
DeleteThe only source I find in Wikipedia is from John's Cornwell's horrible "Hitler's Pope: The Secret History of Pius XII."
Anonymous 7:47AM
DeleteYou can find it in the book "The Popes of the Twentieth Century" by Carlo Falconi on Page 54
Lee
Thanks
DeleteFalconi is just as bad as Cornwell - both apostate priests with an axe to grind.
DeleteThe faithful,who are not in the clerical state,need to be extremely careful with offering or giving spiritual advice.
ReplyDeleteRemember,we will have to be accountable for every word and action.
If possible,direct those with questions and seeking guidance,to an sensible balanced traditional Priest or Bishop.
Advice opinions suggestions etc... regarding the Spiritual realm,can unknowingly,without any ill intent,lead to disastrous consequences and long term fallout within others lives.
If this offended anyone tis not my intent.
The Internet plus the vacancy of the Holy See has many traps waiting for us.
God bless -Andrew
Andrew,
DeleteI take no offense at all, for it is very solid advice, for that is why I take every measure I reasonably can to remove myself from the argument, and to let past ecclesial authorities - those who are lawful and approved - speak for themselves.
Sincerely,
A Simple Man
Understood.
DeleteYour desire to educate millions of Catholics who have little knowledge of their Faith is an act of love for your fellow Catholic Bros + Sisters.
God bless -A
Well, "A Simple Man," I appreciate the notoriety. This is how I indirectly reach sedevacantists.
ReplyDeleteTo begin with, it seems you only had a glance of my book since you attribute this quote to me:
"Indeed, it is easy to see that the vast majority of bishops share the Pope’s ideas about false ecumenism, false religious freedom, etc. It is therefore impossible to imagine in the current circumstances, a judgment of a General Council which would declare the heresy of Pope Francis. Humanly speaking we see the situation is hopeless. We must wait that the Providence, in one way or another, shows the way to overcome this impasse. Meanwhile, it is prudent to maintain the position of Archbishop Lefebvre and pray for the Pope, while resisting his “heresies”
Those aren't my words, and certainly not my conclusion. I even gave the citiations in the beginning of the section of John of St. Thomas
http://www.dominicansavrille.us/on-the-deposition-of-the-pope-part-1-of-2/
http://www.dominicansavrille.us/on-the-deposition-of-the-pope-part-2-of-2/
Elsewhere you write,
"Contra and his fellow “Recognize & Resisters” can’t even claim that much, for their doctrinal and theological presuppositions implicitly reduce the Roman Pontiff to…well, just one more ordinary man among many."
If you had read my book (especially chapter 6 where I defend Vatican II from heresy), you would know I do not fall in the category of R&R.
However, this passage deserves special attention. You write,
" If someone as orthodox and erudite as Monsignor Fenton struggled to reconcile Vatican II with what came before, then how can we readily claim that all of the bishops at that Council “willingly and knowingly” promulgated heretical doctrine?"
Thanks for tacitly admitting that Paul VI couldn't possibly have been a notorious heretic. If the documents of VII can be interpreted in an orthodox sense, then you just undermined the entire sedevacantist narrative.
You write:
“After all, if the entire body of bishops became suspect of heresy because of Vatican II, yet weren’t warned (hypothetically speaking) about the cause of their suspicion, then how can Contra say that the formal visibility of the Church is negatively impacted in any meaningful way?”
You don’t need to receive a canonical warning to be suspect of heresy. Delayed repentance after a canonical warning (6 months time) establishes heretical intent. Recall that Roncalli wasn’t even aware that he was suspected of heresy by the Holy Office.
“the same time arguing elsewhere that suspicion of heresy is not as big of a deal that sedevacantists make it out to be in light of various caveats”
The difference here is I don’t deny that the pope can be a heretic. I simply deny that an entire body of bishops can be so. Which brings me to Bellarmine’s discussion on the great apostasy. You write,
“not all who profess belief in the Great Apostasy (sedevacantist or otherwise) necessarily believe that all Catholic bishops will thereby apostatize as a result”
I’m familiar that sedevacantists hold different views (as I indicate in the intro to chapter 1, as well as the entirety of Chapter 2 of my book). The point in me citing the great apostasy is the fact that the majority of sedevacantists, including the owner of this blog, believe that there are no bishops with ordinary jurisdiction (a position which Bellarmine rejects as heretical).
In the article “Contra Catholicism,” the owner of this blog, after misrepresenting Fr. Berry, wrote,
“So material succession determines Apostolicity as a Mark of the Church.”
This is not what Fr. Berry said. You can simply go read my post on Fr. Berry:
https://contrasedevacantism.blogspot.com/2020/06/fr-elwood-sylvester-berry-on-formal.html
Hello Contra,
DeleteRegarding the citations: I concede the error on my part of attributing the words of Pierre-Marie to you. Part of it, however, is tied to the change of style between versions of your e-book. The original copy I reviewed was as follows:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1cYjlDQEeDIMrLAb3D8BPoFOxP7no6OsHAdi50h0onkI/edit?copiedFromTrash#
I saw, prior to providing to Introibo for publishing, that it had been "moved to the Owner's trash", so I simply utilized your most recent copy without double-checking (which it seems, has also been sent to your Google Docs trash bin):
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1mqnjx_Htf0_ZViU3nQzTQMnsvwlURrlHdIwaCr5i294/edit?copiedFromTrash
When comparing the two, the original version I read from had copious amounts of bracketed footnotes at the very end (which have since been updated and moved about through the entirety of the e-book); given the utter lack of bracketed footnotes in the original's section and the formatting style in Google Docs (which had "Some thoughts as a conclusion" as an entirely separate 'chapter' from John of St. Thomas, even on the side panel), it was my impression the words were yours entirely (and not lifted wholesale from the website of a French SSPX monastery).
Second: "Thanks for tacitly admitting that Paul VI couldn't possibly have been a notorious heretic. If the documents of VII can be interpreted in an orthodox sense, then you just undermined the entire sedevacantist narrative."
That Paul VI couldn't possibly be a notorious heretic, given the benefit of hindsight and availability of information now known which wasn't necessarily known at the time of V2, I deny. That the documents of V2 can be read in an orthodox sense, I distinguish as follows: acknowledging that Mgr. Fenton *tried and struggled* to have an orthodox view of V2 is not equivalent to stating that it is the one subsequently taught, for magisterial documents post-V2 have run with an unorthodox interpretation that does not fit pre-V2 theology (see JP2's encyclical Ut Unum Sint with regards to ecumenism, for example); next, notwithstanding some documents which admit of no orthodox interpretation, the use of ambiguous and innocuous terminology (which may admit of both an orthodox or heterodox reading) could "never be tolerated" in a mere synod per the Apostolic Constitution 'Auctorem Fidei' promulgated by Pope Pius VI; how much less so from an Ecumenical Council?
"You don’t need to receive a canonical warning to be suspect of heresy." Do you imply that *every single* bishop who attended Vatican II was thereby suspect of heresy? (As an aside: this, in particular, is why I have a slight disagreement with Bp. Sanborn's argument as cited by you with regards to pertinacity in relation to Canons 188 and 2200, since much of it is tied to his particular sedeprivationist views. I personally have no difficulty considering Paul VI to have been pertinacious.)
"The difference here is I don’t deny that the pope can be a heretic." Then you contradict Vatican I, plain and simple.
(To be continued)
Continuing,
DeleteWith regards to material succession, I'm not so sure that you're reading things correctly. (Incidentally, a post you linked here in the original comments section of Contra Catholicism - https://contrasedevacantism.blogspot.com/2020/07/response-to-introiboadaltaredei2-on.html - no longer exists. What happened?)
With regards to Fr. Berry, you assert that Introibo misinterprets him on apostolicity on the matter of material succession (which, per page 88 as cited by Introibo, is deemed a negative mark only, but a mark nonetheless; that page is not cited in the post you link to). However, per your own post, the notion of material succession as related to the Eastern Orthodox is noted as availing them nothing because they lack unity and Catholicity. This is not, per se, the problem with sedevacantists, for they outwardly profess unity with Rome, and outwardly profess to be Catholic; the question is with regards to those who claim to be the current Pope of Rome, and the objective contradictions taught in comparison with the past. Meanwhile, as Introibo himself clarified in the comments of Contra Catholicism: he does not believe that there are no bishops with ordinary jurisdiction; rather,
“***IF*** there needs to be a certain number of bishops with Ordinary jurisdiction (and I'm not conceding the point), THEN they exist even though there are no bishops with Ordinary Jurisdiction OF WHOM I AM AWARE.”
With regards to Fr. Salaverri, as pertaining to supplied jurisdiction as an example: as you cite from page 127 of "On the Church of Christ", an ordinary office is defined as the "complex of the powers of teaching, sanctifying, and governing", whereas the extraordinary office is "a complex of powers, which are committed to someone for extraordinary events or circumstances." After noting that Salaverri states that ordinary offices differ from extraordinary ones, you then claim that supplied jurisdiction is therefore an extraordinary office.
I distinguish as follows:
- If Canon 209 of the 1917 Code explicitly *mandates* supplied jurisdiction ("In common error or in positive or probable doubt about either law or fact, the Church supplies jurisdiction for both the external and internal forum."), can supplied jurisdiction be said to be *only* extraordinary?
- That an ordinary office differs from an extraordinary office, in the sense that they are not one and the same, I concede. That an extraordinary office is *exclusively* different from an ordinary office, in the sense that it is therefore impossible for ordinary powers to be exercised in an extraordinary manner during unforeseen circumstances, I deny.
You write,
ReplyDelete“(I also don’t know why he responds to Introibo’s second solution with “the quotation by Fr. Salaverri is inapposite, since no one is denying the hypothetical possibility of a heretical Pope.” There are actually a lot of people who deny the possibility of a heretical Pope, even as a hypothetical, for there are many (yours truly included) who consider it a blanket contradiction in terms.”
Fr. Salaverri doesn’t address a prolonged sede-vacante to my knowledge, which I said citing him was inappropriate. I cite Fr. Salaverri exentsively refuting sedevacantist claims, especially regarding the necessity of “collective” formal succession.
“Even if we were to assume (for the sake of argument) that something like Amoris Laetitia was merely Francis’s opinion, could we even deign to classify it as safe for Catholics to assent to?
This is an excellent resource for AL: https://reducedculpability.blog/
However, regarding your central argument on the ordinary papal magisteirum. First, it should be noted the ordinary or authentic magisteirum doesn’t define anything infallibly. The fact that heresy can exist in the ordinary magisteirum, and not merely lesser degrees of theological error, is because purported ecumenical councils of the past have in fact taught heresy. So there is nothing intrinsically incompatible with heresy existing in the ordinary magisterium. The fact that the pope can teach heresy publicly in his official capacity is in fact admitted by Bellarmine in the cases of Nicholas and Honorius. So your issue isn’t with me, it’s with Bellarmine and the facts of history.
Contra,
DeleteI'll allow Simple Man to finish you off, since it is his post, but I interject to point out that you just claimed:
"The point in me citing the great apostasy is the fact that the majority of sedevacantists, including the owner of this blog, believe that there are no bishops with ordinary jurisdiction (a position which Bellarmine rejects as heretical)."
I have NEVER held such to be the case. In my post against your nonsense, I wrote:
"[You are]Rehashing John Salza's material, and putting out post after post, he cites to pre-Vatican II approved theologians and canonists to prove that Apostolicity is missing if sedevacantism is true because (he asserts) there must be bishops with Ordinary jurisdiction. If there are no such bishops, the Church does not possess one of the Four Marks the One True Church must have--"one, holy, catholic and apostolic." ...
The teaching of the theologians clearly shows a vacancy of the Holy See lasting for an extended period of time. Such a vacancy cannot be pronounced to be incompatible with the promises of Christ as to the Indefectibility of the Church. Therefore, all Four Marks, including Apostolicity and everything else the Church requires, continue of necessity, even if we may not know the exact answers in any given situation. The Magisterium would not allow theologians to teach a hypothetical situation as a real possibility, if that would somehow be incompatible with the dogma of Indefectibility and the promises of Christ. "
(See http://introiboadaltaredei2.blogspot.com/2020/06/contra-catholicism.html).
In other words **IF** Ordinary Jurisdiction is necessary, THEN the Church possesses it EVEN IF the exact manner (who and how) is unknown. Got that? I find it interesting that you accuse me of being "a liar" yet isn't that EXACTLY WHAT YOU HAVE JUST DONE? (Rhetorical question, no need to respond).
"And why seest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye; and seest not the beam that is in thy own eye?"(St. Matthew 7:3).
I enjoy when hypocrites and pseudo-educated dolts like yourself become notorious as well! Makes exposing the Vatican II sect and winning converts that much easier!
---Introibo
Continuing from the second post:
Delete"This is an excellent resource for AL: https://reducedculpability.blog/ "
"Excellent", you say?
As but one example, the post "Amoris Laetitia - An Apology for its Orthodoxy" (https://reducedculpability.blog/2017/01/19/amoris-laetitia-an-apologia-for-its-orthodoxy/), of the items listed on its "Abbreviations and Sources" page, well over 85% of the sources utilized to defend AL's orthodoxy are from after Vatican 2. To that, I say: no thank you.
Try and defend AL using nothing but pre-V2 works, and then we'll talk.
"First, it should be noted the ordinary or authentic magisteirum doesn’t define anything infallibly." Again, infallibility is not the point. Why do you keep returning to it?
"The fact that heresy can exist in the ordinary magisteirum, and not merely lesser degrees of theological error, is because purported ecumenical councils of the past have in fact taught heresy."
Which "ecumenical Councils"?
- The Second Council of Ephesus? The papal legate - Hilarus - escaped due to apparent violence before the council concluded; when St. Leo was made aware of the appeals of Theodoret and Flavian, he unilaterally nullified all of the Acts of this council.
- The Council of Constantinople against images (as cited by Bellarmine)? This refers to the iconoclast Council of Hieria (condemned by the Second Council of Nicaea), which was convoked by Emperor Constantine V without a single Patriarch present (either in person or by proxy), and whilst the See of Constantinople was vacant? Really?
A "purported" council is not one at all, nor can it even be accounted as part of the Magisterium!
"So there is nothing intrinsically incompatible with heresy existing in the ordinary magisterium."
This statement is offensive to pious ears and subversive of the hiearchy, contrary to the teaching of theologians which at the *bare minimum* concedes that such teaching would be safe (and thus *not heretical*, which is different from being free from all species of error) for Catholics.
"The fact that the pope can teach heresy publicly in his official capacity is in fact admitted by Bellarmine in the cases of Nicholas and Honorius."
How often must the cases of Nicholas and Honorius be brought up?
- Regarding Nicholas: you assert on page 24 as follows: "Second, the phrase “private teacher” extends to the pope’s official teaching capacity, and not merely his private theological opinions. This is evident from Bellarmine’s response to the cases of Nicholas and Honorius." This is contrary to the sense of your citation of Bellarmine, wherein he not only specifies the particular item Nicholas was advising the unknown Bulgarians on the matter of the proper minister, and not the baptismal form. Bellarmine himself even states as follows: "...he added in passing that baptism is valid whether it is given in the name of the three persons or in the name of Christ alone. In this he followed the opinion of Ambrose as he says himself. Still, in my judgment, this opinion is false, but not heretical. There is no certain definition of the Church that is discovered on this affair, and various opinions are discovered among the Fathers." And with this, you claim that Bellarmine says Nicholas taught heresy publically?
- Regarding Honorius: That he taught heresy in the sense now understood was sufficiently refuted by Fr. Louis-Nazaire Begin in 1873 (https://novusordowatch.org/primacy-infallibility-pope-honorius-i/) And even then, after your citation of Bellarmine, you again concede the contrary: "In any event, Honorius couldn’t have been a heretic properly speaking since the Church hadn’t formally taught dyothelitism until that point."
"So your issue isn’t with me, it’s with Bellarmine and the facts of history."
Given your mishandling of Bellarmine and history as seen from the above? I think otherwise.
Continuing,
DeleteLastly, I have just a simple question (since, based on the writing above, you acknowledge yourself to not be an R&R in the vein of Salza, Siscoe, or the SSPX; I thereby assume you are more along the lines of FSSP or ICKSP? I don't get the sense from your writing that you're a Resignationist who believes that Benedict is still the Pope, but feel free to correct me otherwise): per Vatican I, can you without hesitation state the following:
- Are you in union with Francis in communion *and* in profession of the same faith?
- Do you profess that Francis preserves the Church in unity and removes the "tendency to schism"?
- Do you profess that Francis possesses "the gift of truth and never-failing faith", so that he discharges his "exalted office for the salvation of all", so that the Catholic Church "might be kept away by them from the poisonous food of error and be nourished with the sustenance of heavenly doctrine"?
Your answer would be quite fascinating, I think.
Sincerely,
A Simple Man
You and Steven Speray must be bed buddies.
ReplyDeleteYes, you are a liar, and you just proved it for all to see. You write:
"I have NEVER held such to be the case. In my post against your nonsense"
In your article "Betrayed by Benns" you clearly stated: "In the absence of the Great Apostasy, I wouldn't be; and shouldn't be. There is no hierarchy with Ordinary jurisdiction, no pope, and no approved theologians and canonists."
There is no point in editing this comment now since I took a screenshot of it.
You seem to also have not read my book, where I explicitly address your argument. First I noted:
"Simply because the Magisterium has not condemned a proposition as heretical does not imply that it isn’t at least materially heretical or proximate to heresy. In a decree issued on 24 September 1665, Pope Alexander VII condemned the proposition: “If a book be published by a younger or modern person, its opinion should be considered as probable, since it has not been rejected by the Holy See as improbable.”
Second,I noted in the intro to the first chapter that formal visibility would still be absent given the sedevacantist narrative.
Contra Intelligence and Morality,
DeleteYou have further proven--in the words of Congressman Jo Wilson to Obama...YOU LIE!
Yes, in my post of May 25th against Theresa Benns, I wrote what you cited[There is no hierarchy with Ordinary jurisdiction, no pope, and no approved theologians and canonists] with the unstated principle to which I have also believed after it "OF WHICH I AM AWARE."
As far back as 2015 or so, someone asked me in the comments about the possibility of a "bishop in the woods" (who would have Ordinary Jurisdiction). I replied that I didn't think there was one, but if necessary it could be possible! Now you will claim "you're just saying that to cover yourself..you're lying."
Ok, let's suppose, ad arguendo, that I used to believe that (even though I did not in fact). My post I cited makes clear what I now believe as it was written a month later. Yet, you claimed :
"The point in me citing the great apostasy is the fact that the majority of sedevacantists, including the owner of this blog, believe [PRESENT TENSE] that there are no bishops with ordinary jurisdiction (a position which Bellarmine rejects as heretical)."
So even IF I believed that, as of June 22, I did not. Therefore, you lied about my current (and Only!) opinion on the matter.
The charge of LIAR sticks. The charge of pseudo-educated dolt has been amply proven by Simple Man as he continues to demolish you in the comments. As far as Steve Speray, he's the best!
If you want to find "BED buddies" I suggest you go to the local Vatican II seminary or contact "Uncle Ted" McCarrick. They have a "gay old time"!
---Introibo
Contra,
DeleteYou state: "Simply because the Magisterium has not condemned a proposition as heretical does not imply that it isn’t at least materially heretical or proximate to heresy. In a decree issued on 24 September 1665, Pope Alexander VII condemned the proposition: “If a book be published by a younger or modern person, its opinion should be considered as probable, since it has not been rejected by the Holy See as improbable.” "
And yet, in your earlier response to me, you also state: "...there is nothing intrinsically incompatible with heresy existing in the ordinary magisterium."
In other words, you profess the possibility that the ordinary magisterium can *also* contain propositions which are materially heretical or proximate to heresy (since they are lesser in rank than heresy). Since that is the case, why raise it as an objection to Introibo's point? (Notwithstanding the larger question of what worth such a Teaching Authority would be.)
Furthermore, with regards to the actual decree by Pope Alexander VII which you cite, it is inapposite for your rejoinder, since we are not simply talking about a "younger" or "modern" person who happened to write a book about; we are talking about the approved theologians of the Church discussing matters of great importance. As but one more example, consider Edmund James O'Reilly (1811 - 1878), who taught theology at Maynooth for 13 years, was the Professor of Theology at the Catholic University of Ireland, and was the Provincial of Ireland from 1863 - 1870:
(To be continued)
Continuing,
Delete"The great schism of the West suggests to me a reflection which I take the liberty of expressing here. If this schism had not occurred, the hypothesis of such a thing happening would appear to many chimerical. They would say it could not be; God would not permit the Church to come into so unhappy a situation. Heresies might spring up and spread and last painfully long, through the fault and to the perdition of their authors and abettors, to the great distress too of the faithful, increased by actual persecution in many places where the heretics were dominant. But that the true Church should remain between thirty and forty years without a thoroughly ascertained Head, and representative of Christ on earth, this would not be. Yet it has been; and we have no guarantee that it will not be again, though we may fervently hope otherwise. What I would infer is, that we must not be too ready to pronounce on what God may permit. We know with absolute certainty that He will fulfil His promises; not allow anything to occur at variance with them; that He will sustain His Church and enable her to triumph over all enemies and difficulties; that He will give to each of the faithful those graces which are needed for each one’s service of Him and attainment of salvation, as He did during the great schism we have been considering, and in all the sufferings and trials which the Church has passed through from the beginning. We may also trust He will do a great deal more than what He has bound Himself to by His promises. We may look forward with a cheering probability to exemption for the future from some of the troubles and misfortunes that have befallen in the past. But we, or our successors in future generations of Christians, shall perhaps see stranger evils than have yet been experienced, even before the immediate approach of that great winding up of all things on earth that will precede the day of judgment. I am not setting up for a prophet, nor pretending to see unhappy wonders, of which I have no knowledge whatever. All I mean to convey is that contingencies regarding the Church, not excluded by the Divine promises, cannot be regarded as practically impossible, just because they would be terrible and distressing in a very high degree." - (Rev. Edmund J. O’Reilly, The Relations of the Church to Society [London: John Hodges, 1892], pp. 287-288)
The position advocated by Introibo and others like myself regarding an extended papal interregnum, as well as the potential solutions regarding how Ordinary Jurisdiction is handed on, are not intrinsically incompatible with what the Church has taught, even if the solutions may be a mystery at this point in time.
To assert as you do, however that the ordinary Magisterium of the Church **can contain heresy** is quite simply incompatible with what has been taught by the Church, and so it cannot be countenanced.
Sincerely,
A Simple Man
Contra-Sedevacantism,
DeleteYour whole argument is missing the forrest for the trees. Is Francis and Vatican 2 Catholic? If they are the. you are bound to follow them, if it is not then you are bound to reject them. If Francis is the Pope and v2 is legitimate then you must follow the teachings of Francis and the second Vatican council. If he is not Catholic then how can you believe he is the Pope? Our Lord said you can know a tree by it’s fruits and a good tree cannot bear evil fruit, when confronted with an evil tree later in his mission our Lord killed the tree. There is no middle ground, no way to have both the Novus Ordo and traditional Catholicism. You cannot eat good fruit from an evil tree.
Instead of using minutia and pillpul to wiggle out of addressing the whole of the issue of sedevacantism you must meet its premise head on whether it breaks your theories or not.
Contra Sedevacantism,
ReplyDeleteI asked you if you were One if faith with your pope Francis and you never answered on the other website, so once again, ARE YOU ONE IN FAITH WITH FRANCIS? Yes or No? "But let your speech be yea, yea: no, no: and that which is over and above these, is of evil." MT 5:37
Lee
Mr. Fake Lawyer,
ReplyDeleteI don't care whether you've changed your position or not. The simple fact of the matter is that your position is still heretical.
Contra Intelligence and Morality,
DeleteHa! Your charge of my being a liar is disproven! Now you assert I'm a "fake" lawyer. And your prooof that I'm not a member of the NYS Bar is...what?? Another calumny.
All can now see whose "steeped in sin"--and it's not me!
You claim my position is "heretical." That charge sticks just like your charge of my being a "liar." I've amply demonstrated my position is compatible with Church teaching.
You're a pathetic joke, just like your sect, it's clergy--and most importantly Francis---Mr. Fake Pope!
---Introibo
You stated: “Again, infallibility is not the point. Why do you keep returning to it?”
ReplyDeleteInfallibility is closely tied with the concept of definitive teaching. I’ll explain why it’s relevant in a moment.
"The fact that heresy can exist in the ordinary magisteirum, and not merely lesser degrees of theological error, is because purported ecumenical councils of the past have in fact taught heresy."
“You stated: “Which "ecumenical Councils"?
I said “purported” ecumenical councils, meaning, not ecumenical councils in the true sense of the term. Both examples you cite could be used.
“A "purported" council is not one at all, nor can it even be accounted as part of the Magisterium!”
Technically, any grade of theological error doesn’t constitute a formal part of the magisteirum, since the magisteirum can’t give anything erroneous given the fact that it’s the voice of Christ. My point in citing “robber councils” is that large councils have exercised the ordinary magisteirum to teach heresy. Claiming they weren’t exercising the magisterium is like saying they were never bishops in the first place. It’s an absurd position.
“This statement is offensive to pious ears and subversive of the hiearchy, contrary to the teaching of theologians which at the *bare minimum* concedes that such teaching would be safe (and thus *not heretical*, which is different from being free from all species of error) for Catholics.”
Except you are ignoring historical examples where councils have taught heresy. That’s an exercise of the ordinary magisteirum.
“And with this, you claim that Bellarmine says Nicholas taught heresy publically?.."So your issue isn’t with me, it’s with Bellarmine and the facts of history."
Whether Bellarmine absolves them of heresy is beside the point. Bellarmine clearly admits the possibility of a pope teaching heresy in his official capacity. If you can’t see that, I can’t help you.
“- Are you in union with Francis in communion *and* in profession of the same faith?”
I’ll answer your question only if you answer mine first. How old are you?
I'll let Simple Man speak for himself, but what has Simple Man's age have to do with ANYTHING? I used to teach middle school science here in NYC, and most of my 7th graders could have ripped your fallacious reasoning apart. Does it make you feel better if he's at least 18 so you weren't humiliated by a minor?
DeleteI'm 55 as of today, if that helps you to answer!
Two gems you gave us:
1. Technically, any grade of theological error doesn’t constitute a formal part of the magisteirum, since the magisteirum can’t give anything erroneous given the fact that it’s the voice of Christ.
2. Bellarmine clearly admits the possibility of a pope teaching heresy in his official capacity.
Yet isn't the pope part of the Magisterium when he teaches in his official capacity? How does #2 comport with #1?
Another square circle from the Vatican II sect apologist!
---Introibo
Contra,
DeleteYou state: "Technically, any grade of theological error doesn’t constitute a formal part of the magisteirum, since the magisteirum can’t give anything erroneous given the fact that it’s the voice of Christ." This is mutually exclusive with your prior statement "there is nothing intrinsically incompatible with heresy existing in the ordinary magisterium."
"My point in citing “robber councils” is that large councils have exercised the ordinary magisteirum to teach heresy. Claiming they weren’t exercising the magisterium is like saying they were never bishops in the first place. It’s an absurd position."
I distinguish as follows: the robber councils cited were either concluded or convoked without the approval or final sanction of the Roman Pontiff. As such, they would not fall within the scope of my post's larger argument, namely with regards to the papal magisterium that does not bear the charism of infallibility. That there have been bishops who have utilized their own authority to teach heretical doctrine, I concede; that such doctrine - separated as it is from the Roman Pontiff - is therefore magisterial in character, I deny.
"Bellarmine clearly admits the possibility of a pope teaching heresy in his official capacity."
Firstly, I certainly can't stop you from elevating private correspondence (especially in the case of Honorius's letters to Sergius) to the level of teaching in an official capacity, especially when the contents of those letters do not rise to the level of definitive teaching (as you have so constantly emphasized with regards to the question of infallibility). Secondly, Bellarmine is responding to Protestant objections that have been raised against the Church; it does not logically follow that just by refuting their objections that Bellarmine admits of a Pope teaching heresy in an "official capacity", even as a possibility. Chapter XI of Book IV from De Romano Pontifice goes over all the objections regarding Honorius; per Ryan Grant's translation, there is no reading that I can see that indicates Bellarmine's was for or against the possibility of a pope teaching heresy in an official manner to any definitive degree. All I can see (per pp. 524) is "Those Fathers only believed that the Pope could err as a private man, which is a probable opinion, although the contrary seems more probable to us." This is far from teaching in an official capacity.
"I’ll answer your question only if you answer mine first. How old are you?"
Irrelevant to my original question, but I'll oblige nonetheless. I'm in my early 30s.
Sincerely,
A Simple Man
“This is mutually exclusive with your prior statement "there is nothing intrinsically incompatible with heresy existing in the ordinary magisterium."
DeleteI think you missed the key word “formally” part of the magisteirum.
“I distinguish as follows: the robber councils cited were either concluded or convoked without the approval or final sanction of the Roman Pontiff.”
“As such, they would not fall within the scope of my post's larger argument, namely with regards to the papal magisterium that does not bear the charism of infallibility. That there have been bishops who have utilized their own authority to teach heretical doctrine, I concede; that such doctrine - separated as it is from the Roman Pontiff - is therefore magisterial in character, I deny.”
That’s outright heresy. Every time a bishop intends to teach on faith and morals he exercises the authentic/ordinary magisteirum.
“Firstly, I certainly can't stop you from elevating private correspondence (especially in the case of Honorius's letters to Sergius) to the level of teaching in an official capacity,”
You’re absolutely clueless. He sent the same two letters to the Constantinople, Alexandria and Jerusalem. So they weren’t private. Furthermore, Sergius was asking as the patriarch of Constantinople to resolve a theological dispute between those three sees.
“especially when the contents of those letters do not rise to the level of definitive teaching (as you have so constantly emphasized with regards to the question of infallibility.”
I’m wondering whether you actually read my book.
“it does not logically follow that just by refuting their objections that Bellarmine admits of a Pope teaching heresy in an "official capacity", even as a possibility.”
Don’t waste my time with stupidity.
“This is far from teaching in an official capacity.”
All I can do is shake my head.
“Irrelevant to my original question, but I'll oblige nonetheless. I'm in my early 30s.”
Grow up, kiddo.
This comment has been removed by the author.
Delete(Reposting for the sake of fixing a minor typo.)
Delete"That’s outright heresy. Every time a bishop intends to teach on faith and morals he exercises the authentic/ordinary magisteirum."
Those who teach heretical doctrine do not exercise the teaching authority of the Church. Furthermore, since the Roman Pontiff is the head of the magisterium, it is impossible to exercise the magisterium without being in union with him, or to exercise it when teaching contrary to him.
It's not that difficult.
"Grow up, kiddo."
And I notice that you haven't answered my earlier question, even though I obliged to answer yours, which was irrelevant to our discussion ("I’ll answer your question only if you answer mine first.").
I believe we're done here.
Shaking my head,
A Simple Man
“The position advocated by Introibo and others like myself regarding an extended papal interregnum, as well as the potential solutions regarding how Ordinary Jurisdiction is handed on, are not intrinsically incompatible with what the Church has taught, even if the solutions may be a mystery at this point in time.”
ReplyDeleteThis is called moving the goal post. After sedevacantists realize they’ve been heretics all along, they come up with some new theory to preserve their sedevacantist heresy. I address all of this in my book (specifically the intro to chapter 1 and the entirety of chapter 2).
“That Paul VI couldn't possibly be a notorious heretic, given the benefit of hindsight and availability of information now known which wasn't necessarily known at the time of V2, I deny.”
In my book I establish the two conditions needed for notoriety (degree of publicity and level of certitude). If the documents of Vatican II can be interpreted in an orthodox sense, then the second condition isn’t met. Second, Paul VI wasn’t a notorious heretic even under the first condition. Third, he couldn’t have been a notorious heretic, given that only a competent judge (in this case a council of bishops) can establish notoriety.
“is not equivalent to stating that it is the one subsequently taught,”
For all intents and purposes, it wouldn’t matter what was taught afterwards, because predecessors can’t be condemned on the basis of what their successors teach.
“the use of ambiguous and innocuous terminology (which may admit of both an orthodox or heterodox reading) could "never be tolerated" in a mere synod per the Apostolic Constitution 'Auctorem Fidei' promulgated by Pope Pius VI; how much less so from an Ecumenical Council?”
I don’t find the teachings of Vatican II ambiguous. Who would even determine whether they were ambiguous, such that they could “never be tolerated”?
“Do you imply that *every single* bishop who attended Vatican II was thereby suspect of heresy?”
I’m not aware of any bishops besides the three mentioned in my book that condemned it. Union with the pope is an implicit acceptance of Vatican II. I mean if Ronacalli was suspected of heresy for simply buying a book, how about clerics being united to a manifest heretic?
"The difference here is I don’t deny that the pope can be a heretic." Then you contradict Vatican I, plain and simple.”
I address this in another blog:
https://contraronconte.blogspot.com/
Contra sedavacantism
DeleteHahaha rejecting Vatican 2 is heresy and following it is orthodox?
Oh wait it’s not heresy if you can come up with an “orthodox” interpretation. You realize it’s the Church that interprets her own documents? “You” can no more interpret Vatican 2 than you can the Bible.
The church has defined what Vatican 2 means: it means ecumenism, collegiality, all religions lead to heaven, no hell, no consequences for sin. That is what the post Vatican 2 church interprets Vatican 2 is, do you deny it? Your “pope” Francis explicitly states it as such, who are you to interject your “orthodox” interpretation over his? He is your “pope” right? Unless he is not the Pope after all.
lol. thanks for the laugh, kid
DeleteContra,
Delete"This is called moving the goal post."
This is rich, coming from someone who holds that a Pope can be a heretic (in clear defiance of Vatican I). That's moving the goalpost back by over a century!
"After sedevacantists realize they’ve been heretics all along, they come up with some new theory to preserve their sedevacantist heresy."
You've already disclosed that you believe the Pope can be a heretic, so why would you even care about heresy from mere laymen?
"In my book I establish the two conditions needed for notoriety (degree of publicity and level of certitude). If the documents of Vatican II can be interpreted in an orthodox sense, then the second condition isn’t met. Second, Paul VI wasn’t a notorious heretic even under the first condition. Third, he couldn’t have been a notorious heretic, given that only a competent judge (in this case a council of bishops) can establish notoriety."
John Daly has already written a sufficient treatise on whether a private individual can recognize an uncondemned heretic. His response suffices: https://romeward.com/articles/239752647/can-a-private-individual-recognize-an-uncondemned-heretic
"For all intents and purposes, it wouldn’t matter what was taught afterwards, because predecessors can’t be condemned on the basis of what their successors teach."
There is plenty from Paul VI's pontificate that is objectionable already (again, the Novus Ordo Missae promulgated by Paul VI was developed with the help of **Protestants**); it was more to make the point that the unorthodox currents of Vatican II were solidified even more by what came afterwards.
"I don’t find the teachings of Vatican II ambiguous."
Clearly.
"Who would even determine whether they were ambiguous, such that they could “never be tolerated”?"
Those with a functioning sense of reason, working knowledge of grammar, and the ability to compare and contrast, for starters. See here for a sample list: http://www.holyromancatholicchurch.org/heresies.html
"I address this in another blog:"
You sure seem to have a lot of blogs.
Second, you seem to have missed the forest for the trees on a very important matter: you seem to believe that the Pope, should they teach heresy in an official capacity, **would still remain as Pope**. That your response to Ron Conte would cite the late Fr. Cekada as support for this position is only testament to how far off the mark you are.
Should the man who occupies the See of Peter actually become a manifest heretic, they are ipso facto deposed by God before any legal judgment or declaration. As such, after becoming a heretic, they can no longer claim the title of Pope **while they are a heretic.**
End of story.
Sincerely,
A Simple Man
Contra Intelligence and Morality,
DeleteA man in his 30s is a kid? Was Christ at age 33 a "kid" on the Cross? The Apostles? I've laughed too--that kid's been ripping you an new orifice! The V2 sect "priests" will really like you now!
---Introibo
His age isn't the issue, but the level of his psychological maturity. As for you, I know your an old buzzard.
DeleteContra,
DeleteSimple Man answered your question about his age--you stated you would answer his question if he did this--so where's YOUR ANSWER TO HIS QUESTION? Will you prove yourself A LIAR once more?
---Introibo
Contra,
DeleteSimple Man has enormous psychological maturity for any age! He answered your question and you promised to answer his--so do it or be (again) a proven liar!
I may be old, but more like fine wine! As to psychological maturity--where's yours? Oh, yeah, I forgot. That presupposes the existence of a mind doesn't it?
---Introibo
“***IF*** there needs to be a certain number of bishops with Ordinary jurisdiction (and I'm not conceding the point), THEN they exist even though there are no bishops with Ordinary Jurisdiction OF WHOM I AM AWARE.”
ReplyDeleteThere are no “ifs”. They must exist as a collective body. And you must be able to determine who they are with moral certainty. Even Griff Ruby agrees.
With regards to Fr. Salaverri, as pertaining to supplied jurisdiction as an example: as you cite from page 127 of "On the Church of Christ", an ordinary office is defined as the "complex of the powers of teaching, sanctifying, and governing", whereas the extraordinary office is "a complex of powers, which are committed to someone for extraordinary events or circumstances."
“After noting that Salaverri states that ordinary offices differ from extraordinary ones, you then claim that supplied jurisdiction is therefore an extraordinary office.”
I never argued such a thing. My argument was that supplied jurisdiction and ordinary office are mutually exclusive.
"I never argued such a thing. My argument was that supplied jurisdiction and ordinary office are mutually exclusive."
DeleteIt follows implicitly from Salaverri's designations, since he only offers three subclasses for the office of the Apostles: ordinary, extraordinary, and delegated. Since supplied jurisdiction is not a delegated office by definition, it therefore follows that supplied jurisdiction - if it is not an ordinary office, as you argue - is therefore an extraordinary office.
My prior arguments regarding supplied jurisdiction still stand.
Sincerely,
A Simple Man
"Yet isn't the pope part of the Magisterium when he teaches in his official capacity? How does #2 comport with #1?"
ReplyDeleteError and heresy don't constitute a formal part of the magisteirum. we can say it constitutes a material element until its overturned/condemned
Oh boy! Let's do this again; you stated:
Delete1. Technically, any grade of theological error doesn’t constitute a formal part of the magisteirum, since the magisteirum can’t give anything erroneous given the fact that it’s the voice of Christ.
2. Bellarmine clearly admits the possibility of a pope teaching heresy in his official capacity.
So when the pope is teaching the Church and it is heretical (#2), it's only a "material element" of the Magisterium? So how would the faithful ever know what teachings to follow? You have a Magisterium that can't teach!
Please cite the theologians who teach that the Magisterium has a "material element" that contains heresy and a "formal element" that does not.
---Introibo
He can’t do it because he is a Pharisee. He holds you (introbio) to the strictest interpretation of every minutia of the law, but to himself he is allowed all the wiggle room, hamstering, and rationalization of a Talmudic sage.
DeleteRyan,
DeleteRight on target!
---Introibo
1: the Church can't teach heresy
ReplyDelete2: bishops and councils haven in fact taught heresy.
The only way to reconcile these two positions is by noting the distinction I just made.
Contra,
DeleteCorrect! That's not what you've been saying, but it's the very reason I'm a sedevacantist! The Church CANNOT teach heresy, but both Vatican II and the "popes" during and after it have taught WORD FOR WORD contradictions which have been proven time and again (on this blog and elsewhere--NOW, Steve Speray, etc.).
Therefore these teachings did not come from the Church but from heretics who could not hold or attain the Petrine Office. A heretic CANNOT be pope.
---Introibo
I suggest everyone stays out of this debate except Introibo & Simple Man VS CS (AKA Robert Siscoe). The interjected comments are taking away from the discussion. OK? Just let this play out man.
ReplyDelete@anon6:00
DeleteIs Contra really Siscoe or are you being sarcastic? If serious, I'd be interested to find out how you know.
Thank you
---Introibo
Your right, I’m sorry my combative and excitable nature got the best of my
DeleteRyan,
DeleteThat was you? Ok, I understand!
---Introibo
I’m not sure if it was now I’m a little lost. All my comments have my name on it. I’m any case I’m just going to sit back now and enjoy my popcorn and lemonade
DeleteI warned everybody that Contra Sedevacantist didn't deserve any sympathy but that he deserved to be called out for what he is. Introibo does a great job of telling him how it is. ASM is too nice, which as you see, gets nowhere. No offense ASM, you're a good man (better than me).
DeleteContra Sedevacantist is not Siscoe but one who follows his line of reasoning. He doesn't answer questions, nor stay on point. Won't defend Francis' teachings but will defend the absurd position that he's pope as if his teachings are beside the point.
He is an agitator who is disturbed mentally and who wants to believe in the unbelievable because he is obstinate.
Lee
It's interesting that Contra brought up "psychological maturity" with regards to my age, because he went and deleted my original comment thread on his blog: https://contrasedevacantism.blogspot.com/2021/01/book-contrasedevacantism-definitive.html
DeleteAs it stands, the only existing record I now have regarding my original comments from that thread now lies (i) in the questions placed at the beginning of my guest post above and (ii) in an e-mail to Introibo.
Since Contra previously mentioned the practice of capturing screen shots, I've gone ahead and made a screengrab of my most recent light-hearted comment in the probable event it gets deleted too.
For anyone who may be reading this thread: it's not usually considered a sterling example of psychological maturity (to borrow Contra's phrase) to delete someone's comment thread on your own blog after being asked relatively simple (and quite inoffensive) questions.
Some might consider that a sign of someone who doesn't think they did too well with regards to our recent discussion, but that's just my opinion.
I'm sure he would be willing to explain himself. All it would take is replying in kind regarding my prior question regarding his union and communion in faith with Francis, seeing as how I obliged to answer his irrelevant question regarding my age.
I'll be waiting patiently.
Sincerely,
A Simple Man
TO MY READERS:
ReplyDeleteAS Contra will NOT answer the question posed to him by Simple Man after PROMISING he would do so if Simple Man revealed his age (which he did). I will not post anything more from that proven liar and calumniator until HE ANSWERS.
My thanks to Contra for making the case for our position and against the Vatican II sect SO EASY!
---Introibo
To Contra,
ReplyDeletebear in mind that each and every one of us will be held accountable to Christ at the Last Judgment for each and every word, either spoken or written down.
You've made your deluded thinking available to the PUBLIC via your Internet publications and they could have been a source of scandal and an incentive to error for confused souls with little or no instruction in the Catholic Faith. Writing a blog or two, having an e-book out may boost your ego but are you willing to take responsibility for what you write?
You have PUBLICLY maligned Introibo and trashed this combox with your scornful language.
Your immature ad hominem attacks are par for the course, given the theological mess you're immersed in; this is, however, no excuse since you decided to go about and publicly preach this mess.
I hope that you man up, stop spewing your twisted theological ideas, confront them at last with the Teaching of the Catholic Church, and draw necessary conclusions.
Joanna S.
Joanna,
DeleteWise advice that I do not believe Contra will heed. He is not of good will.
God Bless,
---Introibo
I know many R&Rs are of good will. But is it safe to say that all R&R leaders and converters (such as CS, Salza, Siscoe, Marshall, etc,) are of bad will? Does anyone know one of them who actually seems to be of good will? Almost every time they're debunked, it's not just their arguments but their apparent good will.
DeleteThe "folks-trads" who have no access to theology books and have just discovered traditionalism are of good will.
Delete@anon9:44 and 1:33
DeleteIt is harder and harder (knowing what we do now under the "un-Catholic in the extreme reign of Bergoglio") to maintain the R&R position in good faith EXCEPT under the condition that anon1:33 described.
---Introibo
Personally, I find it hard to believe that anyone who has seen or heard of John Paul II kissing the Koran and still thinks of him as a Pope or a Saint is either completely deluded or not of good will. Also, who can escape Bergoglio's preposterous statements of heresy regarding Lesbians and sodomites that have been plastered all over the TV and news.
DeleteJoAnn
There's a particular parallel that came to mind after watching a recent documentary about the life of Vince Lombardi (the famous head coach of the Green Bay Packers from the 1959 to 1967 seasons). Some interesting things I learned was that Lombardi had - in his adolescence - briefly considered a priestly vocation before turning to a teaching/coaching career, and that he was a daily Mass-goer for his whole adult life. Furthermore, before going to work in Green Bay, he would often serve as an altar server at his local parish at St. Willebrord. He would also daily make the prayer: "My God, if I am to die today, or suddenly at any time, I wish to receive this Communion as my viaticum ... "
DeleteDespite his personal character flaws, I wondered as I was watching: what did he think, about the changes occurring in the Church as a result of Vatican II? Did he even recognize them, or put much thought to them, as he led the Packers to three straight NFL championships? Did any such questions go through his mind as he grew weaker from terminal colon cancer?
Dying at the age of 57 in 1970, I couldn't help but wonder if he saw anything change at his parish after the conclusion of Vatican II, and if he ever asked himself 'why'.
Such is a similar thought I have for those who have known nothing but the Novus Ordo, and dip their toes into the endless sea of the Church's Tradition; how many think to swim, thinking themselves capable of braving its depths by their own power? How many of them unwittingly cast aside the unassailable vessel that is the Magisterium, and thus metaphorically drown without that lifeline?
I wonder.
Sincerely,
A Simple Man
Simple Man,
DeleteGood questions which I wonder about too.
---Introibo
I stopped reading anything from the likes of Contra and many of those like him long ago when I realized that they have a total disregard for the salvation of souls. That is the litmus test. One can see easily who is misguided but of goodwill, and who is there with the purpose of misguiding, and probably getting paid for it.
ReplyDelete@anon1:31
DeleteThat is the litmus test indeed!
God Bless,
---Introibo
Not all Bishops apostatized. Bishop Blaise Kurz didn't do it.
ReplyDelete@anon4:28
DeleteSo very true! See my post http://introiboadaltaredei2.blogspot.com/2016/06/a-forgotten-hero.html
God Bless,
---Introibo
NOW linked to that article of yours in their "News Digest" in 2016.
Deletehttps://novusordowatch.org/2016/07/news-digest-jul-4-2016/
Hope a lot of people read that.
Also, is there a list of all the bishops who didn't physically sign the papers of V2 (regardless if they rejected it only later)? Bps. Are Kurtz, Thuc, Mendez, Lefeebvre part of it? I never seem to see such list.
@anon9:39
DeleteI am not aware of any such list. Should my readers know, please pass on that information.
God Bless,
---Introibo
Would you recommend the "Dictionary of Scholastic Philosophy" (1966) by Fr. Wuellner SJ (e.g. from here: https://www.amazon.com/Dictionary-Scholastic-Philosophy-Bernard-Wuellner/dp/1622920007/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=Dictionary+of+Scholastic+Philosophy&qid=161255-5033&sr=85033&sr=85033 1)?
ReplyDelete@anon6:31
DeleteAlthough just post-V2 it is still of value. I own a copy.
God Bless,
---Introibo
Good day Introibo,
Deleteis it allowable to use books with post-1958 imprimaturs? Like the RSVCE (1966 imprimatur)?
What counts as "too late"?
@anon4:46
DeleteIn my opinion, to be used without fear of error, you cannot (as a general rule) go beyond 1962. Post-1963 is completely ruled out in my library.
God Bless,
---Introibo
Thanks. But it's not approved by the Church, correct? Does epikeia justify reading it?
DeleteI'm conversing with Steven Speray and he says the 1966 RSVCE is fine.
Also, "We may only read translations of the Bible approved by the Church because she alone is the lawful guardian of the Bible." - Cathecism of St. Pius X. This also goes with other works. Isn't an approval verified by an imprimatur?
DeleteSo is an imprimatur not necessary in our times?
God bless.
@anon6:05
DeleteMy cutoff date is my opinion. 1964 was the year the Vatican II sect was created. My friend Steven Speray may have a good reason for accepting that work to which I am not privy. Having a precise cut-off date is not clear-cut and reasonable Traditionalists may disagree. We can all agree that by 1969, everything was poison put out by the V2 sect.
@anon6:08
When we had a true pope, a Nihil Obstat and Imprimatur would be required. I'm very careful only to repeat those things decided by the Magisterium and Her approved theologians. When I offer my opinion, I say so and it is just that--a layman's opinion you are free to accept or reject. We may read all versions of the Bible that have such Magisterial approval whether original copies or faithful verbatim reprints.
The Nihil Obstat and Imprimatur would be necessary for any theological teaching PROPOSED AS SUCH. Hence, Mr. Speray, NOW and myself/Simple Man are within our rights. Others who propose definitively to teach and decide matters are acting "ultra vires" as we would say in American law--going beyond what they have the right to do.
God Bless,
---Introibo
Thanks!
DeleteIf it is possible to become pope outside Church law, what exactly makes a pope a pope? Recognition?
ReplyDeleteAnon@7:30 AM,
DeleteIntroibo previously covered that particular topic here: https://introiboadaltaredei2.blogspot.com/2018/09/when-can-we-say-habemus-papam-again.html
Sincerely,
A Simple Man
How do I request a Mass for me in a chapel I can't get to because of lockdown. Do priests have different lists of people to pray for each Mass?
ReplyDeleteTo anon@6:09 AM,
DeleteWith regards to the first: some traditional churches or chapels will have a means of getting in touch with a local contact that will be able to facilitate prayer requests or Mass intentions at the chapel in question. If it's a chapel that you normally went to (but are now prevented from reaching), you might be able to find someone to contact locally.
With regards to the second: Mass intentions will generally differ from priest to priest and parish to parish; depending on how many Intentions they receive, it may take a while for a recently-submitted request to be utilized for a given Mass by the priest in question. As for the content of their respective lists (and how they keep track of them), I imagine it would vary amongst the clergy (seeing as how they may have different filing systems or be of higher demand if their church happens to be larger than the mission chapel out in the countryside).
Does this suffice to answer your question?
Sincerely,
A Simple Man
Yes. Thank you.
DeleteLuxvera.org
DeleteContact traditional chapels listed and ask how much Holy Mass stipends cost?
Send them in via mail order.
God bless
-Andrew